The WestJet 737 MAX 8 thread

Old Apr 30, 2019, 8:40 am
  #136  
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Originally Posted by cirrusdragoon

WestJet has multiple 737 simulators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAM-opoJlv8, as the Max shares fleet commonality, they have programming for the max aircraft. It's a common type rating so a 737 simulator is a 737 simulator. They have a special course called a differences course to learn the differences between each model.
Yes, I know WS has 737 simulators, but they are not max simulators, therefor do not have the flight characteristic of the Max. It is my understanding talking to a couple of 737 pilots, if simulator training is required byTransport Canada, they will require the training to be on a 737 Max simulator only. This is Boeing is pushing for non simulator training.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 8:58 am
  #137  
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Originally Posted by FlyerJ


I’m not sure if it’s intentional, but your comments on this seem to be trying to accuse WestJet of skimping on safety, or of them being cheap while AC was somehow wiser or more prudent.
Yes, I'm saying WS skimped on safety. WS only bought 1 of the 2 safety features offered by Boeing, where AC bought both, plus upgraded their cockpits with a additional feature not offered by Boeing before they even entered service.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 10:15 am
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by 5mm
Yes, I'm saying WS skimped on safety. WS only bought 1 of the 2 safety features offered by Boeing, where AC bought both, plus upgraded their cockpits with a additional feature not offered by Boeing before they even entered service.
Perhaps you should re-read my post.

You’re claiming that WestJet (and United, and countess other airlines) intentionally risked the safety of their planes, passengers and crew in order to save a few bucks? That they intentionally and knowingly “skimped” on safety??

No. Each airline purchased the Max with the understanding that the aircraft was 100% safe. That should be a given when buying a Boeing-built, FAA-certified aircraft.

At the time when the planes were purchased, these options were there to customize cockpit features and flight controls, not to make the plane “safer”.

(There are some features - like additional cargo hold fire suppression - that are absolutely only safety options. Neither AC nor WS purchased those.)

It’s only with the luxury of hindsight that you and some in the media can claim that the MCAS/AOA options were “safety features”, as - with hindsight - it could now be argued that the one extra feature purchased by AC might have reduced the risk of an MCAS incident.

But to say that WestJet, United, et al “skimped” on safety is entirely unfair and unwarranted.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 11:29 am
  #139  
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Originally Posted by FlyerJ


Perhaps you should re-read my post.

You’re claiming that WestJet (and United, and countess other airlines) intentionally risked the safety of their planes, passengers and crew in order to save a few bucks? That they intentionally and knowingly “skimped” on safety??

No. Each airline purchased the Max with the understanding that the aircraft was 100% safe. That should be a given when buying a Boeing-built, FAA-certified aircraft.

At the time when the planes were purchased, these options were there to customize cockpit features and flight controls, not to make the plane “safer”.

(There are some features - like additional cargo hold fire suppression - that are absolutely only safety options. Neither AC nor WS purchased those.)

It’s only with the luxury of hindsight that you and some in the media can claim that the MCAS/AOA options were “safety features”, as - with hindsight - it could now be argued that the one extra feature purchased by AC might have reduced the risk of an MCAS incident.

But to say that WestJet, United, et al “skimped” on safety is entirely unfair and unwarranted.
The FAA only certified the aircraft to min safety requirements. It's up to the airlines themselves if they want additional safety measures. AC added these measures, where WS only added one. Look at it as if the Max was a car. Which car would be safer for you to drive. One with air bags, one which out. This feature does not effect how the car drives, but the car is safer for pax with air bags.

UA was just cheap - They were the only North American airline not to take/add any safety extra's.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 12:29 pm
  #140  
 
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Sigh.

One. More. Time.

At the time the planes were sold, the AOA features were not deemed added safety measures. They were customization features for the cockpit and for flight crew functionality. They were not add-ons intended to make the plane less likely to crash, available to any airlines who cared about such things (as you imply).

Hindsight has has changed that, now that the issues with AOA malfunction and it’s impact on MCAS are known. When airlines bought, those issues - or even the potential for such issues - did not exist. It’s easy to be a critic with the benefit of hindsight.

Wherever you came up with this theory that AC splurged on making the planes more safe while other airlines intentionally chose planes that were more likely to crash (in order to save money) is beyond me.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 1:26 pm
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The AoA disagree that WestJet has is the most important feature to alert of an issue. The AoA value display that WestJet doesn’t have may be a safety addition or also a distractor. This is due to the fact that maximum AoA is dependent on many factors that are impossible to memorize by any pilot, so it’s best use is by computerized systems, you don’t want a pilot trying to determine what the max AoA value should be in a high stress situation and not dealing with flying the aircraft - if the AoA displays disagree all they need to do is ignore any AoA value, as the displayed values should be assumed to be wrong anyway.

Maximum AoA varies from about 14 degrees with full flaps, no bank angle and landing or approach speeds to just a couple of degrees at Mach 0.80 while turning at cruising altitude. Air humidity, icing conditions, aircraft weight, engine power setting, bank angle, flap and slat settings and other factors will all have an effect on maximum allowable AoA at any given point in time.
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Old May 8, 2019, 3:29 pm
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Ed Sims and family will be on first Max flight when it returns to service.
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Old Jun 11, 2019, 3:59 pm
  #143  
 
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I see that American is grounding the 737 MAX until Sept 3.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/10/1...ghts-september
I'm scheduled to fly PE YHZ-CDG Aug 17 (Part of a multi-stop triangle YYC-YHZ-CDG-YYC trip). I feel I'll be flying all the way home to YYC before departing to CDG.

Last edited by cgyroof; Jun 12, 2019 at 8:04 am
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Old Jul 30, 2019, 7:19 am
  #144  
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https://calgaryherald.com/business/l...on-from-boeing

WestJet extends suspension of Max 8; airline seeking compensation from Boeing
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Old Jul 30, 2019, 5:22 pm
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There seems to be a consensus that the Max isn’t flying again this year, and quite possibly for some time into 2020. The longer this drags on, the harder it’s going to be for Boeing and the airlines to convince people to fly on it at all. You have to wonder where the tipping point is, and they just cease to be a viable option any more.
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Old Jul 30, 2019, 6:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Symmetre
There seems to be a consensus that the Max isn’t flying again this year, and quite possibly for some time into 2020. The longer this drags on, the harder it’s going to be for Boeing and the airlines to convince people to fly on it at all. You have to wonder where the tipping point is, and they just cease to be a viable option any more.
The cynical view:

- It is unlikely the average member of the public can spot a MAX 8 compared with any other 737 at an airport, if not any other twin-jet from any manufacturer.
- I’m sure “MAX 8” will be painted over on any aircraft and perhaps changed to something else.
- The aircraft designator in bookings will probably change from 7M8 to something else.
- $5 is all that is required in price difference for many people to choose one flight over another (based on research I was privy to about 10 years ago).
- Boeing will have to become bankrupt before they give up on the MAX,
- It is unlikely that Boeing will scrap the aircraft currently in service and the 500 or so likely produced before a return to service, with a right-down value of about $85 billion USD.
- Production of any MAX competitor will take years to increase to fill the void the MAX has left in aircraft deliveries, so the airline industry will generally be unable to fulfil demand without the MAX, unless ticket prices rise significantly to suppress demand.

I think within 6 months of reintroduction into service that the MAX 8 fiasco will have been forgotten by most members of the public and not relatable to flights that they will be choosing to fly on.
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Old Jul 30, 2019, 7:34 pm
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Agreed. And frankly, people’s memories really are surprisingly short. (9/11, for example, was incredibly traumatic and understandably caused most people to stop flying altogether — for what turned out to be only a few months. Then they came back.)

Many passengers won’t be concerned about the Max on day one that it’s reintroduced. (I’d get on one happily.). Of those that are concerned, their fear will fade quickly. And like Aerobod said, many will be swayed by a nominal savings on a seat sale fare or will just stop paying attention to the aircraft type.

In my opinion, the Max will be the absolute safest plane out there once it’s back. It’s going through an absolutely incredible amount of scrutiny - more than any other aircraft. Every government regulator - along with Boeing - will do absolutely everything possible to ensure that the Max is as safe as possible. None of them will want to take any risk of another accident. It’ll have received vastly more safety scrutiny than any Airbus, any Embraer, or any other Boeing model ever has.


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Last edited by FlyerJ; Jul 30, 2019 at 9:33 pm
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Old Jul 30, 2019, 10:43 pm
  #148  
 
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As one who has been involved in the aftermath of a number engineering failures, my take is that once it is airborne the Max 8/9 will be the safest aircraft in the air. Engineers don't like to be wrong twice. It is highly unlikely that the ones who are fixing it are the same ones who screwed it up. And unlike the original designers, the fixers will have an unlimited budget, unlimited resources, and apparently an almost unlimited schedule.

But of course, the cynical public won't listen to that.
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Old Jul 31, 2019, 4:45 pm
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Air Canada has chartered a pair of 767s to cover their MAX routes to Hawaii, any signals from WestJet as to what they're doing?

The axe is going to have to fall pretty soon on the flights beginning early December.
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Old Aug 1, 2019, 2:51 pm
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Originally Posted by Error 601
Air Canada has chartered a pair of 767s to cover their MAX routes to Hawaii, any signals from WestJet as to what they're doing?

The axe is going to have to fall pretty soon on the flights beginning early December.
I assume, and hope, that Westjet and Onex are working on a deal to charter or lease some aircraft as a result of the Max grounding and the retirement of one of their old 700s.

I don't know what the Onex leasing situation is like but I would think that now that the deal has been approved they will move some aircrafts around.
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