Thanks for your feedback, I have adjusted my numbers as follows:

Removed CS and C values as no comparison has been made.

I will change as soon as UA removes blackout dates on saver awards. VX awards can be redeemed on any flight (equivalent to standard award).

This is something else to keep in mind, but the value of better schedules cannot be supported by numbers.

Spend the same amount on VX and you will also receive an annual benefit. This will be different, but the price you pay to fly will also differ.

Thanks for catching this one sbm12, I have adjusted my figures accordingly.

Do you have a way to measure the cost (and value) of earning status in the first place (that works for everyone's situation)?

I know some ppl can game the system to earn 1K, but you would have to assume everyone had the time and spare cash to do a whole bunch of MRs. Plus there is the inconvenience and valuable time lost (expensive for those of us who charge by the hour). I had to fly a few transpacs in Y (at ~AU$3000 a hit) to earn 1P status, I would not do that just to gain a better earning ratio.

I'm open to suggestions. I left it out because I could not accurately factor that into the comparison.

VX listens
 

There was a bunch of press about elevate redemption today, including this little note in one of the articles:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...5%7D&dist=hppr

UA/AA C is really the best comparison with VX F.

You may want to note that UA offers something that VX doesn't: the ability to redeem at 45,000 miles for a capacity controlled reward. That is not an insignificant benefit and similar awards are offered by every other airline competing with VX.

That depends on how each individual or business values time. For people who bill $500+/hour and bill travel time back to their clients, taking the option with the lowest frequency does not make sense if it means you might end up waiting several hours to get on a flight if your meeting ends early.

Wrong. 1P and 1K can be had fairly cheaply if you fly coach, and they both come with the potential benefit of a $8,000-14,000 ticket (or two) every year. On VX you get a $2,000 ticket for spending $20,000 and even then you will lose all of your points if you don't use them within 18 months. As the program currently exists, the vast majority of VX flyers will never see any benefit from their VX points except, if they are lucky, maybe a coach reward between SFO and LAS. Even WN has a better program than that.

VX just went from having no frequent flyer program to having the lowest value frequent flyer program in North America.

Have you flown VX F? :confused: No way is UA C on par with VX F.

Right, so I cannot compare the two award tickets in that way. If VX offered capacity controlled awards then they could be compared with UA's.

So what do you compare elite status (or E+) with? Don't forget we are comparing award tickets here. I didn't try to calculate figures for IFE and real customer service either. Let's not get too subjective here.

VX seats do not lie flat. They are similar in size and pitch to those offered in UA C. The service is a bit different but the seat is the most important comparison for most people.

To make an accurate comparison between programs, you need to include any benefit offered by one that is not offered by the other.

You can't really compare elite status with anything offered by VX because VX doesn't offer anything comparable. That just has to go into the category of benefits that are offered by nearly every airline in North America that are not offered by VX.

The comparison was between award tickets, not FF programs. My apologies if I have confused you.

You haven't. A saver award is an award ticket.

Saver awards do not let you choose any flight/date and cannot be upgraded. The closest thing UA offers to a VX award is their standard award. If they change the policy, I'll edit the post. UA do not offer (reasonable) one-way tickets or awards, so I didn't compare them either.

I mentioned the saver awards, but did not use them in the comparison because they are not equivalent. How about I underline that sentence for you ;)

I have been wondering about this. I see from seatguru that the pitch is similar (VX has a little higher), but have never flown UA PS C. Have you tried both, and is the recline really similar?

As I mentioned in the first "correction" post I made, some number of people are able to redeem for saver awards regularly. It is not 100% in either direction. Not knowing the details of what the exact numbers are it is impossible to say what the spread is, but it is safe to say that the "average" number of miles redeemed for a Y reward is between 25K and 50K. Without the exact numbers that the FF programs have we won't know for certain what that number is, and the numbers skew pretty significantly if you choose one end or the other. That's something that has to be considered.

Yes it can. Schedule is more important to a LOT of people traveling, particularly those who traditionally buy shorter notice, higher priced fares (i.e. biz travelers).

One-way rewards is a significant benefit that VX offers.

As for the cost of getting to elite status, that varies, but it can be calculated and can even be calculated without MRs.

If one flies transcons only, after the 5th r/t flight a 25% bonus kicks in on the earn. After the 10th r/t a 50% bonus kicks in. Assuming 10 r/t flown in Y someone on VX would have ~25K points (assuming ~$500 r/t to make math easy). That same person would have ~56K MP points and PremEx status. Those points can be redeemed on VX for about a o/w F reward or on UA for a F r/t reward assuming you can find a saver seat or half a F r/t standard reward. True, I can't redeem the o/w on UA, but the points earn is about the same.

The next 10 r/t transcons in Y will earn another ~25K VX points and will earn ~75K MP points and 1K status. At that point you can book a r/t F reward on VX or a r/t F standard reward on UA and still have 30K points left over.

Year 2 is a whole different ball game. Flying 20 r/t Y transcons on VX will get you another ~50K VX points, another F reward. Flying the same 20 on UA will get you 200K points, enough for 2 standard or 4 saver seats. It is also enough for 2 F tickets to Europe on a proper International partner like LH. But VX doesn't offer international redemption so I guess we shouldn't include that in the comparison.

If you are flying in paid F the rates change, but most people I know who focus on the earning rates and nuance of a program are not buying paid F for their domestic flights.

You are missing my point. If you are going to compare award options, you need to look not only at comparable awards but at any awards offered by one program that are not offered by the other. UA offers a saver award that VX does not offer. VX offers a one-way award that UA does not. VX offers an upgrade award for reward tickets that NW also offers but UA does not. Those facts are part of the large mix of factors that go into how each individual will value the respective frequent flyer programs.

Thanks for making this point, I have begun calculating numbers that factor in status levels achieved whilst completing the flights on UA and the earning bonuses that then apply.

?? you are talking about FF programs again :confused:

I've attempted to consider your point of view and make changes to accommodate it, but this is going nowhere. I'm making the decision to end this conversation.

Another thing to mention is that UA PS is only available on very few routes, while VX F is available on every route. Whether or not you consider a premium F cabin to be of any use on short haul flights (I do), I believe it should somehow be factored into a comparison (but I couldn't tell you how, as it's already too confusing to me).

The rewards are part of the program. You cannot reasonably extract rewards from the program since the purpose of the program is to earn points to use for rewards.

But thanks for ending the discussion. I guess the rest of us should all go home now since it is over. :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

I tend to agree that VX's FF program isn't as generous as your typical legacy airline's, especially with F (Y is OK, all things considered).

That's because VX's precept with their F product is "we're going to keep the price down in comparison to some competitors by not really giving it away- no status upgrades, everyone pays SOMETHING for the privilege of riding in F". The bottom line is if you were trying to design a program that would NOT appeal to most FTers, who love trying to work the angles with domestic US legacy airlines to get their annual TATL trips on a non-US airline to Europe, but you WERE trying to maximize the revenue trips you derive from your F cabin and minimize non-rev ones, you'd probably design your FF program something like Elevate- no status upgrades, make the Y return on investment reasonable, the F pretty outlandish.

As such, I can't blame the typical FTer for thinking this is a bad deal compared to schlepping on UA through a lot of E+, and so on, to get their F trips on SQ and LH, even if it means watching the p.s. product and F/C products on UA degrade... but I think there IS a market out there that would rather just pay to fly on VX and VS and get better travel experiences all the time, and that's what VX thinks it can get in their F cabins. That market's just not on FT, mostly. ;)

Actually, VX has designed a program that seems to be designed to fill the F cabin with discounted F purchasers and paid upgrades. eleVAte has nothing to offer for people who pay full fare F on their company's dime.

... except for significant price savings as compared to AA/UA. The problem is that benefit accrues to the company paying for the airfare, not to the employee getting the FF miles and presumably in the position to make the purchasing decision.

"Do I save the company thousands per year, or do I fly to Europe for free again?"

... and the more you pay the more points you earn :rolleyes:

VX will offer more international redemptions in time.

That has been the problem with frequent flyer programs for quite some time. We'll see what the refundable F fares turn out to be prior to determining whether VX is actually cheaper, particularly when compared against negotiated discount rates.

"more?"

Well, you could have parsed his sentence to be true:

VX will have rewards that are more "international", in time.

;-) ;-)

:) I was referring to the side-conversation with 'rjque' that was filling up this thread and going in circles. Constructive discussion is more than welcome (thanks again for providing a way to measure the elite bonus).

A good article on the program:

http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/u...tml?id=2749856

It is a good article from the perspective of VX as he waits until the very end to point out any of the shortcomings of the program. And when he does he doesn't do a very good job of it. I wonder if my comment will be published or not. ;)

I disagree that it's good from the perspective of VX. Ending on the sour note is appropriate, and attention-grabbing. It could have been buried in the middle, after all. The only positive stuff is at the beginning, while he's pointing out all along that he still has questions. By the middle, he's calling redemption for coach "decent if unspectacular". The rest is negative.

Yeah, the 18 month expiration is a BIG problem. Even Southwest isn't that bad (flight credits expire at 24 months).

Not only that, but Southwest doesn't have first class. Like the author says, it will be impossible for most to get an F reward ticket.

I think he says that it will be impossible for most to get any reward ticket, not just an F reward ticket. It's true. As long as the 18 month expiration is there the only people who will be able to redeem are those who make at least 10 VX trips per 18 months or those who spend more than at least $5000 per year on a VX credit card. Despite what one reads on FT, those are two relatively small groups of consumers.

Yeah, plus WN has a lot of partners. To give you an idea, I will have flown 4 WN one way trips in the space of 12 months: but thanks to AMEX points and Dollar rentals (plus some bonuses on the Dollar rentals), I'll be able to turn all of that into a Rapid Rewards ticket by the end of the year- and I'll probably burn it for a SEA-PIT trip next summer via MDW on Southwest for a conference.

Well, I disagree that it will be impossible for most to get any reward ticket. With just a few F revenue tickets you can get a free Y ticket.

Sure, you or I could get a free ticket to Vegas in Y after a couple of F transcons to JFK or IAD, but most people don't buy those expensive tickets. I think the author's point is that the vast majority of people flying VX will never earn enough points to get an award. That's probably true of most airlines' programs but the 18 month expiration removes the possibility of getting a free ticket to Vegas after five years of flying to see grandma at Christmas.

Like WN, VX has adopted a frequent flyer program that requires people to fly frequently to obtain rewards. (Though VX requires people to fly much more frequently than WN). That doesn't really bother me all that much. What does bother me is how uncompetitive the program is for people who pay top dollar for travel.

VX Elevate is THE WORST!!
 

Elevate is THE WORST!! I have flown 8 one way flights on Virgin America between LAX and IAD. That's 18,352 miles on any other airline, or 50% towards a Southwest Rapid Rewards ticket. But Thats only 4580 points on Virgin America (I average $114 per flight). Right now the cheapest flight between IAD and LAX is $134 each way or 12,464 points for a free round trip ticket. So I am only 37% of the points needed to get a free trip, the same flight that I have traveled 4 round trips. With any other airlines I would be 73% towards a 25,000 mileage award, and 50% towards a southwest ticket (Southwest also has no change fees). And all of those other airlines have much larger choice of destinations for my free ticket. The Elevate program is clearly and definitely the WORST in the industry. Interestingly they had 4900 points as the amount for a free ticket on their website for more than a year. Too bad this is NOT even enough for a free ticket for the $59 each way ticket between LAX and SFO which requires 5488 points. What a scam!

I disagree. It's only the worst for people who don't pay high ticket prices. For those who do, eleVAte is not quite the worst, just among the worst.

VX Elevate is THE WORST!!
 

OK, you got me there.

The 4900 published was for a one-way free ticket.

So, you're complaining because your $230 round trip cross country airfares on brand new airplanes aren't giving you enough FF points?

By all means, fly United to Dulles then, I guess. You can tell everyone how much "VXsux" on one of their planes. I hear they're quite nice.

A UA 319 or 320 is a fantastic experience in E+ (ignoring the service issues). It is a much nicer ride than any standard VX seat.

Well, you're paying extra for the E+ until you get UA status, but yeah, that's the idea, I guess- if you don't like the package that VX offers (good planes and prices, not so good FF program), find someone else who offers you more of what you want. I find that coming into a forum with an account designed to whine about how an airline "sux" to be a somewhat less productive way of dealing with your problems.

I also think paying $114 for each leg of a cross-country trip (I'm assuming before taxes and fees- so we're still talking about <$300) shouldn't have you crying in your beer about how your FF benefits suck- and that's coming from someone who largely agrees that VX's FF program isn't very awesome... but I also think that the idea of brand loyalty to crappy airlines because you can occasionally get superlative experiences on other airlines as a result of your FF program is sort of wacky- it's like driving a bad car that goes into the shop regularly and has all kinds of problems because once or twice a year you can rent a Ferrari for a week for next to nothing. I think frequent flyer programs should really be afterthoughts compared to the operation of the airline itself, I guess- which is how I think VX is set up (though some improvements would be nice- points not expiring after 18 months, ways to upgrade seats using points and perhaps a higher point tier or two for more frequent fliers being the ones I could think of, like say 5x/6x/7x, which is what they do at DJ/VA).