Well, the points (5 per dollar spent) are Somewhat similar to Velocity, DJ/VA's program. (Originally, Virgin Blue did not have the status levels- just 5 points/dollar, like VX).

The details for how points are spent would require me to enroll, but I did find this chart, where Sydney to Hong Kong is at 60,000 points... for economy class, I bet. (I am also guessing that VX will partner with AMEX- that's been bruited about.) That doesn't look much different that *A (60K, .au to SE Asia). Thus, I suspect that the point level will be similar to other airline mileage levels- meaning for TATL in F or C, figure on high 5/low 6 in points.

So, I'm going to whip out a semi-informed wild-assed guess and say sure, there will be partnerships with airlines like VS/VA/DJ and other partners, as well as the credit card, that will make it LOOK like other airlines... but when a) the points are 5 per dollar spent and b) the points expire in 18 months, that means one or two TATL trips a year in C or F means you'll have to be spending 20K+ a year on VX to have a PRAYER of getting that C or F TATL trip before the points expire (that would be giving me 100,000 K eleVAte points in a calendar year). I'm almost DEAD certain I could do better than that on any legacy airline if you gave me $20,000 and 18 months.

Oh, and a VS round-trip ticket in Upper Class? Right now, they are running somewhere around $3000-4000.

http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/us...cialoffers.jsp

Like I said, I think you'd be better off BUYING the VS Upper Class ticket. I'm pretty sure if you gave me $16,000 to spend on UA, and you had $20,000 to spend on VX, I could end up with more C TATL travel than you did. And I don't even know how the system on UA works, exactly. ;)

The bottom line is I don't think VX isn't making the FF program very generous. My belief is this is quite deliberate, because they are tying rewards to spend, not mileage. C'est la vie, I suppose, and I think they are going to put their efforts towards making the paying travel better, as opposed to providing better FF travel.

The point is to leverage my employer's travel spend, not my own. I may be able to direct $20,000 of my employer's $$ to the airline of my choice but I certainly will not be spending $4000 of my own money on a TATL ticket in upper class. The legacies' willingness to give me an occasional expensive ticket that I would never actually buy myself is the reason those legacies get my employer's travel $$. As long as individual travelers still have some say in choice of airline, VX will be at the bottom of the list for anyone who cares about miles for more than just an occasional domestic trip in coach. That means VX is competing with WN, B6 and F9 rather than UA, DL, CO or AA.

Well, that's the thing: if your company is willing to hand you an unpaid benefit worth many thousands of dollars (in effect, free TATL premium travel every year), you'd be a fool not to take it. VX is never going to make sense as your choice in such an environment, simply because you can likely maximize your FF return on other legacy airlines.

But yes, VX (in coach) is structured like a low-cost airline, not a legacy. Their F product is a bit of a different bird; it's meant to attract people who are willing to pay for F, and compete with AA Flagship F in 3-class/UA p.s. on domestic routes- while being significantly less expensive and higher quality because they aren't giving any of the seats away to frequent fliers with status. In essence, I think it's what F would be if LCCs did F- straightforward pricing and limited ways to game the FF system. In essence, I think what Virgin America wants is to be WN with mood lighting, better technology and "cool" factor, and a first class cabin to attract people that's attractive to people who can pay somewhat more for F travel (as opposed to the typical FTer, who is generally only in C or F when they are comped an upgrade or blowing their FF miles for long and expensive trips).

One might also point out that WN's model works. Remarkably well. UA/AA? Not so much (and it took crash&burns for CO to get things right). We're just going to have to wait and see if VX has gotten it right.

VX can't compete with the UA and AA premium products for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the vast majority of paid traffic in full fare J/C/F is being paid for by companies whose employees expect to get miles they can use for future personal travel. Sure, there is the occasional super wealthy person who doesn't care about miles, but those people on their own can't support a commercial airline. VX won't be able to get a significant portion of that paid premium travel unless it comes close to what UA and AA do in terms of redemption opportunities.

VX is a great alternative to WN but its business model is not set up to compete there. WN provides a phenomenal short haul product for high revenue flyers by offering phenomenal frequency and flexibility that the legacies just can't match. No airline has been able to beat WN at this game and VX isn't even trying (nor do I think it necessarily should). Unless the legacies continue to gut their frequent flyer programs to the point of non-existence, VX's model will not work for me.

It doesn't have to support the WHOLE airline, but if VX can snag enough with superior product, yes, I think there are people who will take better airlines that don't suck, and trade off the occasional trip on a different airline that's somewhat pleasurable.

One of the problems with F in US domestic service is not enough people pay for it, and you get the "pizza so cheap nobody eats it" problem- people get to the point where they say "screw this, I'll fly an LCC where they at least they don't pretend". I think VX is trying something different with their F product, and seeing if people will accept some tradeoffs.

Also, VX isn't ruinously expensive for F- their prices are comparable to VS Upper Class (~1200 one way transcon JFK-LAX, VS Upper JFK-LHR is around $1500 + nastier taxes for a 1K longer flight). I would think that's not a coincidence.

There's just no way you can do that unless you're giving FF bennies based on miles, though, not points on spend and zilch in the way of upgrade parties.

The thing is, though, are UA and AA making consistent profits WITH that paid premium travel? It doesn't seem so. Granted, I don't think VX is, either, yet (their network needs to build out a lot more) but they do seem to sell a lot of F on transcons to JFK, so SOMEONE is buying it.

I think they are going to have to- I expect FF programs to slowly degrade as time goes by. Structuring them based on mileage and not spend is insane (much like some of the other ways the American airline industry works), and you can see how awards have inflated prices in miles, and shrunken in availability as time has gone by. Granted, I'm happy I can take advantage of airlines being insane right now, but I don't think it can last.

I can understand going with the airline that gives you the points if thats gonna end up getting you an international J flight every year. My question though, especially if you're an F flyer....isn't there a point where the money you save because VX F is significantly cheaper, enough to just go and purchase an international J ticket.
I guess it depends on your own situation, but I always found it funny people staying loyal to an airline for the points, even when in the long run the overal deal they were getting wasn't any better than if they flew the cheapest and most direct airline and used the money saved towards new tickets.

Again, the reason FF programs were invented was because it gave a personal benefit to people who were spending their employers' dollars. That means taking the VX flight will keep some $$ in the employer's pocket while depriving the passenger of the occasional international trip.

Edited to add: Also, with corporate contracts, the price of full fare on many airlines may actually be cheaper than the published VX rates.

As I understand it, the premium cabins on SFO/LAX-JFK are pretty much the only consistently profitable venture for UA and AA. They can make money on these routes because there are plenty of people who are spending $2000-$6000 per seat under corporate contracts. Few of those folks would ever spend their own money simply to get the better seat and service of C/F. VX, so far, has decided to leave that business with AA/UA.

I thought the point of the thread was for some hypothetical eleVAte benefits. Certainly it has turned into a discussion as if the eleVAte benefits won't be compelling. I say we wait until we find out what they are.

Certainly, I don't consider myself "super rich" and choose VX for my F domestic travel, at the expense of my earned elite status. It is that much better for me. I'm not giving up my free international leisure travel, because I'm still getting points from my credit card when I buy my business travel tickets on VX. I've also seen mention of a VX credit card in the works (on this board).

Well, the point of the thread was to question when we would start actually receiving benefits. Here we are, more than a year after VX's launch and there are still no details on what the VX points can be used for.

Perhaps "super rich" is the wrong term for those who will pay $2000-$6000 out of their own pocket for a transcon in C or F. The point is that there are very few folks who are willing to pay 5-30 times more of their own money for a ticket in F/C vs. Y. Business travel is critical to the success of any premium cabin, and without a competitive FF program VX is leaving much of that business travel on the table.

I share in your frustration. Although I still prefer VX with no FF program over UA with Mileage Plus.

Since when does it cost $6000 to fly transcon on VX? Are you referring to the legacies? The point is that F in VX is (relatively) affordable, especially if you score a 24 hour upgrade.

I was referring to the legacies - UA can be upwards of $6,000 for PS F (though it's not at all worth that). I'm not talking about 24 hour upgrades when I talk about full fare business pax. VX is ignoring pax who are willing to pay even $4000 (the occasional cost of a full fare C ticket in PS) for a transcon.

Fair enough, but you seem to be referring to people who spend $6000 of other people's money for transcon F on UA/AA so they get the mileage bennies- whereas you could get transcon F on VX AND VS Upper TATL easily for that, and likely have change.

I also think you'd be surprised how many people pay for F. Consider that Alaska almost NEVER has transcon upgrade availability in F for their elites- and those tickets generally go for $1600 round trip (and it's not as swank as VX, and is going out of a market in the Pacific Northwest that isn't as affluent as SFO, LAX and JFK).

I'm not surprised at all that AS has full F cabins - I tried to buy DCA-SEA in F a few weeks back and could not because the flight was already sold out. My point is that the majority of sold tickets are paid for by businesses and not individuals. For those people, it doesn't matter if you can get VX and VS F and UC SFO-JFK-LHR for the same $6000 used to buyt SFO-JFK ticket in UA F. SFO-JFK is all the employer will pay for so the fact that $6000 could buy many other things is irrelevant.

that would be interesting to see.

I would especially be interested in what they have to offer to justify getting one so I don't have to use my JetBlue AMEX for future VX purchases... or so I could keep my future earned, very few points at that, from expiring.

--Russ

Ok, folks, ask and you shall receive. The new beta eleVAte code has been added to the VX site, meaning redemption is showing up, as well as a new, expanded eleVate home page info-box and My Account section.

Now, when you go to Book a Flight, there are 2 options - one for display as dollars and one for display as points. Minimum point spend for transcon is 6,930 each way coach, and 48,558 each way for First.