johnep1

I have found that when someone resorts to the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defense, they usually have realized that their argument is flawed. When this is not the case, the user is probably 10 years old and is just repeating what they heard on the playground.

AndDee

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread

^

SocalApproach

What is the big deal here...It has been confirmed they received paper checks instead of direct deposit...EVERYONE GOT PAID THAT SAME DAY. except those who have neglected to change their mailing address. end of story

HRDiva

Well checks were issued the same day, but not received as expected. Obviously those away on a trio performing their duties may not have received their pay until they returned home to collect their mail. That is a big deal. But to me, as a HR practitioner and professor, what is equally critical is communication. A Payroll processor knows of this type of error in advance of the paydate. That live checks were issued and would be mailed should have been communicated, in my opinion. Employees should not learn of it by noticing that their direct deposit failed to hit their account and be put in a position to seek out information as to why it happened. That's all I have to say about it.

Seat2C

Not even close to the end of the story. According to the messages posted on another board, no one posted that they received their check on time - If HR Diva is correct, and I have no reason to doubt her, the payroll error originated at Virgin America. While it may have been a simple mistake, missing payroll/kiting checks is a classic sign of a company running out of money.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/signs...ess-17169.html
http://www.ehow.com/list_6629328_sig...-bankrupt.html
http://www.helium.com/items/2068758-...ut-of-business

This could have been an inadvertant error, but one of the pilot posts also stated that the company previously missed required 401k contributions. Let me quote the pilot's post: "Sure. Late deposit of our last 401k. Now, I checked my account for pay and quarterly incentive. Nothing. This is for all pilots and FAs." So this wasn't the first missed pay event at Virgin, it was the second.
HRDiva mentioned that the company would get a payroll report at least a day prior to direct deposits being sent out. Yet Virgin America did not respond to this issue until AFTER employees noticed that their direct deposits were not received. Why were they reactive rather than proactive?

It's no secret that Virgin America's been burning through money faster than the Post Office (who announced yesterday that they'd end Saturday mail service). Maybe that their credit card processor increased the holdback. This is the same thing that pushed Frontier into bankruptcy a few years ago. http://upstart.bizjournals.com/views....html?page=all

This could just be a mistake in Virgin America's payroll dept. That brings us to the next question - who's Virgin's payroll manager? I won't post her name but according to her LinkedIn profile, she's been at Virgin America for 3 yrs 8 mos.
Maybe Virgin America is new to ADP payroll services? No, this link indicates that they've been using ADP since at least 2008: http://www.adp.com/media/press-relea...s-process.aspx
Maybe she was on vacation when both errors occurred, I don't know. But this isn't something that I'd dismiss as a nonissue.

What's a quick way for a troubled airline to get some cash in the coffers? Run a fare sale. And if you want to get even more tickets sold, open up a new route or two to catch some additional ticket sales.

There are too many red flags in this story to simply dismiss it as a vendor error. Other airlines have released their fourth quarter earnings reports, yet not a peep from Virgin America. Caveat Emptor.

SocalApproach

You are ridiculous honestly...If you were an actually Employee at VX I would take you more serious. All the pilots on APF have nothing but good things to say about VX internally and that the company went above and beyond the call to rectify things. They just got done hiring a new batch of inflight this past weekend. About 40 ish id say. So even as you say there a flags that a company is folding there are flags that they are expanding and still growing. Those pilots and Inflight team members in particular I have spoken to personally are saying quite the contrary that you are saying here. Like I have stated before. Your point is well taken. They have never recorded a NET profit so I understand your point of view. However it is no more accurate than anyone else s opinion as a spectator.



I am very curious to see but seriously...What else is new? They are always last to report profits (or lack there of)

VXCabinCrew

Oh my goodness! There's nothing to see here, folks! We all got paid and our leadership did a trenendous job of helping those out who were stuck for a couple days waiting for the paper checks. It was an ADP error and I'm sure our company will now be looking at alternative vendors. Not only was this a regular payday for us, but we also received a performance bonus. I think the additional check for the bonus threw something out of whack. 2013 is looking to be a great year for us, and as usual, our leadership has taken a big step in supporting our inflight team.

SocalApproach

Certainly doesn't sound like someone who works for an airline that's about to go belly up. If you guys made a profit with in Q4 even with the Hurricane Sandy impact I would have to certainly give a ^ to leadership for the changes they made last fall.

HRDiva

I am not suggesting that the error had anything to do with financial difficulties. But I am suggesting it was a VX error.

I think you are drinking red juice. I don't believe it was an ADP error; rather I think it was an operator error and your company should have notified you in ADVANCE of payday because they KNEW about it in advance of payday. Yes the bonus threw it out of whack. But that is operator error, not the fault of the computer program.

To shift into reverse in my Volvo, I have to shift down. To shift in my husband's Mazda that I rarely drive, I have to shift up. If I get in his car and shift down to go into reverse and end up moving forward because I am really in first gear and crash the car, is it Mazda's fault or my fault? I don't regulary drive his car, so I'm not all that familiar with his gear orientation. But who has the responsibility to check it out first?

Show me the apology letter from ADP, and I'll believe it was their error.

I have been involved in HR and payroll for many, many years and have been an ADP client for many years. I don't believe it was their error. Show me that I am wrong with a letter of apology from ADP. Otherwise it's red juice spin, in my opinion.

MightyTravels

Oh my - I have tickets for flights in July - I hope they gonna stick around that long. I hope Sir Branson will not let them just die quickly - he has the means to see this through, let's hope he has the will to it as well.

gooseman13

HRDiva - you may be right, it could be an error triggered by VX. However, I still don't believe the evidence in any way points to an intentional error for financial reasons. That was the initial point of the thread and I think some may see a link between saying it is VX's error and saying they in dire financial straits.

HRDiva

Right, I didn't say it was a deliberate error. I never did. All I said was that I believe the error was operator error not ADP's error, and I explained the payroll process that likely caused the error. In explaining the likely cause of the error, at no time did I say it was deliberate.

California has very strict wage payment laws and strict penalties. A company would be super stupid to do something to deliberately sabotage payroll. The fines are huge.

I am just calling foul on blaming the error on ADP and saying how wonderful VX management was. VX management wasn't wonderful even if, for some highly unlikely chance it was an ADP error, because they knew about it in advance of payday and did not notify employees. They waited till people didn't get their direct deposit and started calling. Then, it somehow got blamed on ADP. But no one as come forward to prove that.

Seat2C

OK, that right there is pretty darned funny. I'll give you three examples of employees having no idea of what their employer's true financial condition was. And these are not isolated incidents of employees in denial of their employer's financial status.
1) Remember the Hostess strike? The one where the company said it would file bankruptcy and go out of business if employees didn't return to work? Remember the employees calling the company's bluff? Let me know if you're able to buy Twinkies at your local supermarket.
2) Remember Enron? I've spoken to quite a few former employees and every one of them told me that they never saw it coming.
3) Remember Lehman Brothers? After Lehman Brothers made the headlines (and I dug into their financial reports), I opened a short position on Lehman stock. On one of my flights (in my usual seat 2C), the guy in the next seat was talking to his boss prior to the flight. He complained to his boss about the company not funding his last several structuring agreements and was told that corporate was cutting back on investments. I talked to him quite a bit during the flight; turned out he worked for Lehman. I asked him if there were any problems with Lehman and he assured me that Lehman's financials were solid. I shorted more stock after the flight.

Since I know so little about Virgin America's financials, perhaps you can answer the following questions for me (it's publicly available information):
1) What was VX's unrestricted cash at the end of the third quarter? How much was cash and how much was short term investments? Note on short term investments: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/...#axzz2KG1NEZg3

2) Since credit card holdbacks are considered restricted cash, that amount is not included in the first figures. Credit card holdbacks are based on Air Traffic Liabilities. http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Hawai..._Card_Holdback How much was VX's Air Traffic Liabilities at the end of the third quarter?

3) How much cash did VX lose during the fourth quarter of 2011 net of the $150 million investment they received?

4) Using the above information, you can see that Hawaiian's holdback was 25% and from my previous post, you saw that Frontier's holdback got increased to 50%. Using Air Traffic Liabilities from #2, what is 25% of that number? If you subtract that amount and the amount of #3 from total unrestricted cash in #1, what's the number you come up with? Now subtract 1/3 of first quarter 2012's decrease in cash.

It's OK if you don't know the answers; let me know if you give up and I'll post the answers.

76Patriots

Fyi, fairly long time UA flyer who started taking some VX flights recently (in the past year - in part thanks to the CO-UA merger issues). VX In Flight product is WELL above domestic norms....from planes to IF offerings to crew. For the most part UA can't touch it (not entirely but in large part). As someone who works in an industry who deals with customers directly, my hunch on poster EPV is he/she is exactly the kind of lost customer that equals addition by subtraction (this person embarrasses themselves with what they write). Good luck to you and your coworkers continuing to keep VX going.
With that said, UA with the *A, MP and network remains compelling enough to keep my flying with them the majority of the time (VX is currently getting my 'I will get 1k and can afford 4 to 6 flights with others such as VX). I hope your airline can make an F9 type move and get some better alliances going -- as well as find a way to make Elevate more compelling. I would definitely make VX a bigger part of my flying if they can do that.

I hope that this payroll issue is simply an error and not a sign of things to come (for you and for the industry as a whole).

SocalApproach

Ill give you ONE example of someone who has no idea what is VX's financial condition or future and it is you. Once again I will say it again and please read this clearly because you obviously have not read a single word I have said.

I am NOT trying to debate VX cash on hand, Financials, etc. Reason being because they have not released their Q4 2012 results. Also when VX employees are saying everything you are not it just makes no sense to argue it with you. You do not work there and you do not have access to any internal information regarding their financials. Not exactly saying flight attendants do but I am not about to argue on a forum with an employee about their situation unless there is hard proof they are going bust.



Are you serious? ladies and gentleman...the prophet of the airline industry front and center. He must know all. After that last few sentences rant I dont even know what you are trying to debate anymore....First it seemed that you were trying to argue the ADP error was proof they are out of money and now it seems you just want to show that you can calculate how much money they have left on hand which nobody here has actually brought up anyways. If you are trying to connect the two then unless VX files bankruptcy, In the end my one point still stands. Everything you say is just an opinion and I will once again say you are entitled to it but will also add its simply another person somewhere being a couch CEO on flyertalk in his/her finest hour.