Is Virgin America a terrible program for value?
 

Greetings all
I recently had all my points expire in my Elevate account
Then looked and considered flying them again since the new non expiring policy went into effect.
Question: I was trying to determine how much a free ticket in First Class would cost to redeem?The roundtrip I selected said 140,000 plus points :eek:
Holy toledo does this make VA the worst frequent flyer program in history for value or do I need an education in their program?

I venture to say at one point per dollar on their Visa Card I would need
140,000 dollars in spending to earn a rroundtrip ticket.Am I not getting something here?Thanks for the feedback

You can always check the points value to book a flight on the website, just by toggling between having the fare display in points or dollars.

Regular usage of the card earns points at a one-for-one rate. If you utilize it for Virgin travel, however, you earn 3 points per dollar, which makes a total of 8 points per dollar if you add in the 5 points you already get from your Elevate account.

How did you miss all of the email advisories about the upcoming expiration date, so you could have just bought something in the Red Store to re-up the date?

I started flying them before Elevate was launched. I loved the brand and hated the program.It would be awesome if Virgin Atlantic could partner up with them too.I have been so busy flying with One World as an Exec Plat
and in so many other Star Alliance and various hotel and dining programs I got distracted........Do you thing the cc and flying VA even come close to the value with the Legacy Carrier programs overall?

Elevate points have a calculated value of around $0.0215 each and 'cost' around $0.125-$0.2 each. That's approx 10-17% redemption (if my elementary school-level math skills are correct).

So (assuming that average prices remain constant), you'd get a free flight after 6-10 flights...

FYI - the FAQ thread contains some good info on redemption values etc.

I've taken a total of ten paid flights on VX. Tomorrow I'll by flying my fifth VX award segment. VX is great for one-way and short-distance awards (all of my award flights have been short-distance), especially when the point level corresponds to a cheap fare. I've earned my points from the paid flights, the Visa signup bonus, and points earned using the Visa for VX ticket, upgrade, and RED purchases (I don't use it for anything else, which is fine since there's no annual fee).

Now, eleVAte is a fairly primitive program overall. There are a few threads discussing its relative merits compared with the legacies' programs, in which you can read my gripes. :p But I'd say I've gotten decent traction out of my points thus far. ^

As always, YMMV.

Easy question: the answer is yes. It doesn't even come close to even the worst of the legacy progams.

Yes, it's a terrible program if you expect to get F flights for free. Basically, it's a watered-down version of WN's Rapid Rewards (which itself is about to be watered down).

But then again, the idea that "we get you to fly on our crap airline by occasionally letting you fly on a good airline in first class" is a completely stupid way to run an airline loyalty program- you're not encouraging loyalty to your product per se. Instead, you're bribing people to suffer you by shoveling miles at your customers, and the incentives are all out of whack- someone spending $99 on JFK-LAX months in advance on most airlines gets MORE return in "loyalty" than someone spending $300 on last-minute LAX-SFO in Y (and that first person might have gotten a free upgrade to J/F on their discount fare, to boot). On VX, the customer who spent more gets more. If I owned an airline and was designing a loyalty program, I'd make it similar to VX or what DJ does (DJ is similar to VX, except they have elite levels where you can get better points multipliers if you fly them more).

Good post eponymous_coward
So would I except I might not have enough customers so i would be forced to discount heavily with 50% off sales.Rinse and repeat.
It is the program and fares that drives the business so i am less price sensetive and more brand loyal.I frequently pay more for my flights on American as an Executive Platinum.I am fine with that as the program is fantastic.
Take away Americans richly rewarding program and I would be gone buying product and value.Virgin can't live in a world of its own with an poor value proposistion.How long since VA hit the ground did it take these rocket scientists to figure out expiring points is a sure way to kill loyalty?
How many times did customers have to give them the words of reality before they got it ?
Virgin Atlantic program on the other hand is richly rewarding though the partner network very weak.Every time I redeem and find myself satisfied with a program and value I am far more likely to do all my business with that program even if they may have limited properties or in the case of an airline limited routes/non stops.......Especially Virgin

Well, you can earn free flights on Virgin Atlantic by flying on VX, now. You have a choice of earning VX points or Velocity miles, and Velocity miles can be used for flying Virgin Atlantic. I've been trying to figure out how that works out compared to flying legacies with the intent to fly VS, but the Velocity site has very limited info about redeeming for VS (it only shows a couple of examples).

Any chance retroactively? That'd be nice then, as once VX pulls out of SNA on 5/26 (which is effectively Friday the 21st for me), I won't be taking them any longer, and I'll be stuck with ~4500 points by then.

I guess since I have enough now for a MC ticket SFO-SNA I should just use one of those, but it'd be nice to take the remaining points and do something with them (I'd even give 'em away, just so's they don't wind up going to waste).

Can't imagine that you could do it retroactively. No other airline allows such a thing, that I know of.

Everything has a cost. VX has invested their costs in improving their F and Y product. AA flies 25 year old planes on JFK-LAX, puts new covers on their old J recliners, and gives customers a great deal in the form of a loyalty program as the way they invest their costs.

I am not convinced that VX's route is the wrong way to go. It's not going to be popular with FTers, since as a subset of the FF crowd, we're concentrating on how to turn our MRs into cheap J upgrades to Europe and miles into RTW trips, but I think WN is a good example of an LCC coming in with a model that didn't involve a lot of what other airlines did, and it worked out for them. I think VX F is what you'd get if you applied LCC principles to F- lower pricing, less ways to game the system to get into it, nothing handed out for free. Their FF product I am less impressed with, but I still don't think it's the wrong approach. Maybe people would rather fly an airline with a better F and Y experience and forfeit some miles.

... people like me, for example, who only got DL FO last year going to SLC on segments and will hardly rack up the miles necessary to burn 'em for anything substantial.

A quick ramble :)
 

Thanks for your thoughts
Yes the planes are newer does that make the experience lesser on a legacy carrier with older planes?
I understand what you are saying in principal and you certainly have an interesting post/thought process.
If Virgin had a wow experience I think they could keep the lower value.Don't get me wrong i respect much of what they are doing but its not that great at the end of the day. I fly first or business class in a 767 coast to coast in a very good comfortable seat with pre boarding with a good meal (sometimes) and beverage service.

Also receive great value in a program for earning and redeeming on world class carriers. Is that really an incomparable experience just because a smaller aircraft at Virgin is new?Does Virgin believe they are superior in all other aspects of the experience?What they have on the table is weak IMO unless they get as big as Jet Blue with many routes.They aren't going to get the lions share of customers till they up the bar and make the program far more compelling.Not that I see any promise as it took this long for these program rocket scientists to abolish expiring miles :rolleyes:

I also have great lounges to use globally with One World.Beacuse a small plane is newer they have the right to drop value indefinately?I have flown Virgin America in first it wasn't great it was satisfactory.And though new the seat was not that comfortable despite how nice the leather looked
I actually thought their coach product was a far better value.
If international ownership brought any business culture with them it appears to be stinginess as if no other programs compete in the marketplace
Imagine if there were no other programs were competing how bad their program offering would be.Its pretty thin now :eek:

(emphasis mine). This should have been at the top of your message, so that we could have given the rest of it the credibility it deserves.

Straw man alert. That was not his argument. Not once did he mention newer planes.

Many people seem to think they do have a wow experience. It's enough for me to pay 3x over other airlines for their F product transcon. Others are, too.

And there's the tearing down of the straw man. :-)

Unless you are solely comparing FF programs, it doesn't make sense to compare routes. It makes more sense to compare on a route-by-route basis. VX doesn't care if AA beats them RDU-ORD.

It's worth pointing out that there was never a period of time when you had no choice but to let your miles be abolished if you didn't use them. You didn't say that there was, but I point it out for the sake of others who might be reading this (and possibly you, if you didn't realize).

You already tore down that straw man

I give you the benefit of the doubt, but my (and others') opinion differs. Otherwise, why would we be paying 3x more than other airlines for F? I give you this benefit of the doubt, despite your making up stories about foreign ownership. Read the FAQ.

Their coach product is okay, but I wouldn't call it a great value. Until the fleetwide WiFi, B6 had a much better coach product. B6 coach is still more comfortable, but without the WiFi, I'd rather be on VX.

I take it you weren't a big fan of my last post :D
As a moderator I wish to give you the respect in which you deserve as I have great gratitude for all the moderators here on Flyertalk who volunteer in our communities.
We have differences of opinions in the way we both personally make comparisons in value. Understood and respected

If you feel Virgin is the last word and willing to pay 3x the fare then they have found perhaps their target customer in you and others that’s great news for the airline and hopefully in the relationship you seem satisfied with.
I came to learn in this forum and see if I might be missing something here primarily from the earning and redemption side of Elevate.
Certainly hear you that you believe my comments lack credibility, validity or place here based on the tone of your post.

It also appears in my personal criticisms I stepped on some personal sensitivity with a brand and program you evidently are fond of.
My apologies if that should be the case.
I too am a huge defender of any program and brand I feel has been misunderstood or miscommunicated by others.

Starting with my thoughts on some aspects of partial international ownership (yes I left the word partial out)I am tired tonight and that’s why I said ramble in my original heading I am not entirely focused ;)

That said here is an article on potential ownership for those in this forum who may wish to review
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2009/0...n-america.html

In regards to your other comment
While the previous poster did not mention newer planes they did mention that other carriers fly 25 year old planes. I think that brings up a great point here one that as I understand from your comments has no merit here based on what the previous poster shared. But I chose to elaborate none the less. I truly believe that Virgin may believe they simply don’t have to compete as hard. My viewpoint is the weaker value proposition to the program may just be tied to what they see as a better experience and product. And it certainly is in some or many regards depending on customer perception.

Most airlines last I looked are struggling today. it’s a buyers market.Value remains highly important in most relationships in a world of rocketing excessive fees and surcharges. Price of tickets has always ruled with consumers. A program is in and out of the FT world is still important to many today.Many elite tiers bring relief from such excessive fees through benefits aimed at frequent travelers for their loyalty.Loyalty is earned by a vareity of factors a number of soft and hard benefits.

Virgin to their credit does differentiate clearly with its aircraft product and overall experience.Is it enough to give up the exceptional value offered by other programs?I suppose thats up to the individual customer to decide..........

Despite some of my previous negative comments I want Virgin America to succeed.I would like nothing more then to be one of their customers down the road.
I have a good friend and long time colleague running a major airline program at a competing carrier to Virgin America.That program has the luxury to offer their customers such broader opportunities and value with far more routes and destinations. I hope Virgin America will take Elevate to the next level and grow with greater destination choices.....Its good for customers and its good for the industry.
Based on the consistent feedback here there does seem to be room for some serious improvement in this program. That’s what I came to find out by posting in this forum as I am seeking other program and flying opportunities if I see a good fit.Wanted to get up to date with the word on the street

Despite what I shared here and the way it may have been perceived I do admire Virgin as the best new airline ever in the history of the United States. I cannot overlook its weakness none the less in the way it runs its FF program.That said if you strip all FF programs away and close them in the morning I would be on any Virgin America flight in the morning where ever they happen to fly.
Being I don't see that happening anytime soon i may just stick around and hope for some improvement.They certainly are a quality carrier that deserves strong respect.They have that from me.......Now about some elevation in Elevate ;)
Cheers

Like I said, I don't expect Elevate to win a lot of fans on FT. It's not a good value compared to legacy programs where your return is based on miles flown instead of spend.

However, as I also said, please note that miles flown is only loosely correlated to spend. It's my firm assertion that in many cases, legacy airlines are rewarding unprofitable or marginally profitable customers with frequent flyer benefits far out of scale to the revenue they return, and that affects the quality of the onboard product and overall experience (and this is part of why we've seen FF programs and the F cabin get watered down over the years). VX has made the decision that when it comes to their elites and their F cabin, you get what you pay for, and their goal is to not reward the marginally profitable/unprofitable customer who can figure out how to do a 1.5 cpm mileage run. I think that's tremendously sensible. It's also my feeling that the number of people who really exploit the value of FF programs to their maximum value (intercontinental F) is actually fairly small, so VX could easily get away with their approach.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, when you spoke of international ownership you triggered an oft-used "magic bullet" to put down VX. It is normally used to say, "Hey, they're breaking the law, so that's why they can offer a better product." That battle has cost VX millions, and it's over. It was based on untrue supposition and rumor. Yet people continue to treat it as fact, and throw it out there, so that's why the mention of credibility.

Since your post talked more about the hard product than the FF program, I felt there was something to actually argue, since yes, my opinion is that it is far better.

The FF program definitely doesn't compete on the level of the legacies, but now with the ability to redeem on VA, VS, EK, etc., it's getting closer.

Great post well said and worth repeating non cowardly one ;)
Thank You
Have been fortunate for the past number of years to be an invited guest at conferences and watch/listen to the executive minds behind the biggest programs in the industry speak about customer value. It is interesting to note that some select programs are hostile towards some of their customers. You know those awful folks that don’t purchase a full fare ticket.
Those bottom feeders as the industry likes to refer to them..........

Some practice what they preach when it comes time to rewarding less profitable customers.However I would put those folks who strip value from their programs in the minority once they actually implement plans into action.
Most are seeking market share........ Tim Winship a writer who I admire and many here probaly are aware of has written about the fact that today’s frequent flyer has to some degree been replaced or perhaps competing by the new group of elites The Frequent Buyer with credit card spending and online shopping earnings. The frustration grows amongst many with more miles chasing fewer seats and redemption much tougher on the average from years past. There are handful of programs to their credit that truly live up to their promise. Every year I send business and leisure travelers to those programs......I gravitate towards all programs that can find a good balance. Typically what I end up with is exceptional return on my spending. Now mind you I am not complaining here :)

I have often thought on board with a variety of carriers if they rewarded me a little less and charged me a little more could service and the overall experience be considerably better?
And would folks be willing to except that trade off? My experience tells me regardless of how much I am willing to pay for tickets airlines will typically keep penny pinching adding fees, surcharges and cutting leg room and raising executive salaries. Where does the revolving door end up?

On the international side Ryan Air (where frequently the most frugal policies are invented) is in a war with Boeing trying to cut out as many restrooms onboard out of their new planes and holding back orders till Boeing cries Uncle. Pay toilets have also been floated around as another idea to discourage passengers from in-flight usage and bring in a new revenue channel. In the interim Boeing maintains removing restrooms compromises safety. How far can cost cutting go?
Every time I think we the flying public has reached a limit to what new unbundled charge the carriers can invent they come up with a new one. Spirit raised some ire more recently with charges for onboard carry ons

The unspoken truth is as a customer I find myself frequently highly overly rewarded for my revenue. I fly and stay in hotels far more than I ever imagined as a result somewhat like an addict. Inside Flyer and Flyertalk have fueled my interest for over ten years now in seeing the world on points and miles. That said these programs either throw free nights at me more then I can easily use in a promotional period or more confirmable international upgrades then a normal individual can use in a year. I had 12 systemwide confirmables this year alone after reaching 4 million miles as an Exec Platinum Should I complain? That would certainly be an unpopular thread in the AA forum

Then there is the other extreme the Elevate affect not much to chew on. I’d like a compromise personally. So far if my decade spent participating and researching programs has any merit programs tend to be globally feast or famine. I remain highly grateful to those in our communities that shared the feast or the knowledge which allowed me to travel well and reap enormous returns/benefits from those programs.

They really haven't done anything to improve the Y product other than to add personal IFE, which is something many legacies also have, and provide a better selection of BOB. I suspect the most lucrative customers care about one thing and one thing only in coach: personal space. There, VX is one of the worst carriers out there due to the poor design of the coach seats. That, combined with the worst frequent flyer program in the industry makes VX a very unattractive option for me, and nearly every one of my flights is full fare.

IMHO - VX's product is worth much more than the handful of miles I'd earn on UA...

When I flew UA more, the FF program made me feel like I was being led by a carrot on a stick. They give you these miles, but when you want to redeem them there are no award seats available, or you need to pay a lot more for a ticket that gives you the (small) chance of an upgrade - well this is typically the case for us 'bottom feeders' at least. My wife and I now have a couple hundred thousand UA miles sitting around that are of little to no value to us.

When choosing between UA and VX, it's a no-brainer for me. Why would I pay more for a lesser product in order to collect miles and upgrades I have little to no chance of redeeming?

I probably don't fly enough (anymore) to get any real value out of a legacy FF program anyway. Most FT'ers would feel differently, so I understand if ppl here disagree with my POV.

Wow- I hate to quote a post in its entirety, but it's like you're reading my mind.

When VX pulls out of SNA, I'm essentially stuck with UA, as the last WN flight on the way home from SFO leaves too early for me at 1900.

The bolded section should have an *:

* on some domestic plane types, but not all, as opposed to VX, which has it on EVERY flight

Product consistency counts. The legacies do not have it when it comes to IFE, and they won't have it for a LOOOONG time.

Also, inseat 110v power in Y, WiFi on ALL flights. I put the odds of legacies having the former fleetwide within the next 10 years at approximately never; WiFi should happen soon, though.

That's an opinion.

I've flown lots of single-aisle US domestic coach in the 2+ years since I started flying VX in coach (ordered in approximate order of how many hours I've flown in it): AS, WN, DL (ex-NW and original DL planes), AA, US. I don't find VX coach uncomfortable (and I'm not a small person), and in terms of pitch, VX has identical pitch to AS and WN, and better than AA/DL/US.

In addition, every, I mean EVERY acquaintance of mine who's flown VX has liked it and said they will be flying them again, and I know they aren't all flying in the F cabin (in fact, my 11 year old daughter, if you gave her a choice between AS F and VX Y, would pick VX Y, and she's flown both). Now, mind you, my friends are all mostly casual, occasional flyers, not road warriors/FT mileage hounds, and it's a collection of anecdotes, not empirical data, but this makes me skeptical that your experience is typical. That doesn't make it invalid- it just means Your Mileage Has Varied.

I didn't see this 'till Ep Coward quoted it, but:

Are you kidding?! Have you been back there?! I had to take UA home one day (and for me, that means E-) - now that's a bad Y seat.

I've spent more for VX Y than UA Y because of that. MCS is even better and many times not much more $ than Y.

EC is right - YMMV. For me, that hard seatback makes VX unbearable in anything lower than MCS. It's not just about pitch (and the pitch is not great) but about what I do with my legs in the seat. On UA, even in E-, my legs go into the soft seatback. On VX, they hit a hard plastic seat pocket, which is incredibly uncomfortable. It's not the worst I've experienced in the world (that would be CX, with a useless footrest that caused bleeding after 11 hours in coach), but it is really bad for a domestic carrier.

You should consider the helpful advice by a long time cranky Senior FA at United gave me.Cut of your legs and you'll be more comfortable.
Pay up and move up or put up.Its not our fault you are 6"2 :D

It's actually 6'4", and that advice is pretty typical of United. She's forgetting the other option - the one I choose - to book on another airline where I am not so uncomfortable. :cool:

FWIW, I'm 6'3". Funny thing is, I never have a problem with legroom; they're long enough they fit under the seat (my feet reach to the metal bar blocking the underseat) but unless the guy in front has his seatback in full-recline mode, my knees are usually good. I guess more of my height is "torso" than "leg".

I won't pay more for exit rows for this reason, since IME many of 'em don't recline nor have tray tables attached to the seatback in front (the folding ones are never as stable) and aren't as great to me as they are to many here- in fact, the reason I'll pay for F, seatwise, is 'cause of the width (I have wide shoulders) vs. the legroom.

Well, if having a superawesome FF program with loads of international F redemption options and benefits for FFers makes you money, please explain why out of AA, DL, CO, US and UA, none of them make a consistent profit, and the US airline that does is WN?

As far as I can tell, all available evidence indicates that FF programs with generous benefits (in the sense of how FTers see them) are (at least) fairly irrelevant in terms of long-term success of your airline as a going concern. So you can't really say to VX "you're doing it wrong"- at least not on that basis. (The fact remains that VX isn't making a profit, either.)

Perhaps the "international F" part isn't as important to most people as it is to me, but a marketable frequent flyer program *is* a part of every U.S. airline that has managed to survive. WN's program may not offer international F, but it does offer things business travelers may like, such as pre-boarding, companion passes, and awards that can be used to avoid expensive personal travel. VX's program really just seems to exist so it can say that it has a frequent flyer program, but no effort appears to have been made to provide anything that differentiates it from, say, getting that Capital One card that provides for "free" travel on any flight under $89.

Maybe VX can make this thing work on quality alone, but I have to say that the quality just isn't there for me. VX gets lots of things right - the staff have wonderful attitudes, and F is just amazing, but the uncomfortable coach seating and lack of value in the FF program really kill the deal for me. And I think that's unfortunate, because there really is a lot of potential in VX given the many things they have done right so far, and the general lack of a quality competitor.

From all reports, WN is transitioning to a more VX-like RR 2.0 (that rewards spend). B6's program isn't much to write home about, either (spend based, but they do have bonuses for frequency and length of flights, no international rewards, no FF tiers at all). WS is is spend-based as well- and you ONLY get FF cashback once your spend crosses a $1500 threshold. :eek:

If I had to bet on what VX will do, at some point, they'll do what DJ does with Velocity (once they actually have more of a FF base and network): they'll eventually start kicking back more points and tchochtkes to their most loyal FFers.

I had to pick up on this because I am in the same situation but with the opposite conclusion. I am UA elite who flies both domestically and regularly to LHR (which is where I rack up the UA miles). I'm SFO-based and would LOVE to fly a VS/VX combo where my miles (read:loyalty) was federated between carriers.

As it happens I get WAY more out of sticking to UA because every flight I get an upgrade to economy plus and domestically, I usually get an upgrade to first. (I also have had no problems redeeming miles, even internationally and at short notice due to bereavement - but maybe that's just my route).

I just read for the first time that if I was a Virgin Velocity Miles member I can earn on both VS and VX and redeem on VS... but it seems crazy that I have to be a member of Virgin's Australian program to do this.

If they are going to let people into the federated world via the backdoor, they might as well just create a pan-Virgin network (yes, even though they all have separate ownership... this is already happening when I can earn miles on UA and redeem on Lufthansa or Air Canada).

For me, this is why VX's program is such poor value... it doesn't consider that many (most profitable?) customers take international trips as well as domestic - and their loyalty isn't remunerated.

Are you saying that it is a poor value because you have to be a V Australia program member to use VX to earn international travel? It takes like 2 seconds to sign up.