Ceece

I didn't even know anything about a finCEN form or a problem traveling OUT of the U.S. with more than $10,000 until just very recently while doing my taxes.

Here is my problem and question.(Sorry this is long) I'm a U.S. citizen. I married a Canadian citizen. Last fall, 2009, we travelled across the Peace Bridge together. At the time, I was coming over as a visitor, to stay with my husband while awaiting the outcome of my Permanent residency app to Canada. That was not a problem and they gave me a one year visitor record. However, due to the fact that my bank person didn't seem to know how to do a wire transfer, I had her make out a cashier's check for MY money from my bank account, in MY name. It also stated Non-Negotiable on the check. I did not sign the check.

When we crossed at the Canadian border the officer asked me if I had more than $10,000 with me. I was truthful and said yes and asked him if he wanted to see the cashier's check. He looked at the check and wrote down the amount and I even spoke to two other Canadian border officers and neither of them said anything about the money I had with me. I assumed this was not a problem. The next day my husband and I opened a joint bank account and deposited the money. It's being used for living expenses for me.

But now I'm reading about a finCEN form that's supposed to be filled out at the time of departing the U.S. and I've been freaking out afraid I've done something wrong, unintentionally.

First of all, how was I supposed to do this when there were NO U.S. customs officers at that Canadian border?

Secondly, I'm wondering if this is even an issue due to what is said on the IRS. website in Publication 519

The term “monetary instruments” means the following:
Coin and currency of the United States or of any other country,Travelers' checks in any form,Investment securities or stock in bearer form or otherwise in such form that title to them passes upon delivery,Negotiable instruments (including checks, promissory notes, and money orders) in bearer form, endorsed without restriction, made out to a fictitious payee, or otherwise in such form that title to them passes upon delivery, and Checks, promissory notes, and money orders which are signed but on which the name of the payee has been omitted.

However, the term does not include:

Checks or money orders made payable to the order of a named person which have not been endorsed or which contain restrictive endorsements,

I'm wondering if the latter, means the same as what I had? A cashier's check made payable to me, from my bank and it wasn't endorsed until I went to deposit it in the Canadian bank with my husband.

Can anyone please shed some light on this or know who I should contact to find out? I've called the IRS and I've gotten three different answers.

Thank you so much

Taker Park

Cashier's check, made out in your name, unendorsed = non-negotiable

A long time ago, non-negotiable was explained to me this way: If you find it on the street and can either spend it like cash or trade it very easily for cash, it's negotiable.

A cashier's check, made payable to CASH, is negotiable.

From my standpoint, you haven't done anything wrong or illegal.

HereAndThereSC

As silly as it may sound, next time, keep it at $9,500.

HTSC

cj001f

Suppository.

Mountain Trader

First of all, I should say I am not a pro at this but I have poked around on the issue.

While FinCen does handle money issues, they are more involved with tracking crime and terrorism issues. U.S. Customs handles most commercial transactions. Their website has a FAQ you'll want to read:

https://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs...i=&p_topview=1

It seems to me that since you had not endorsed your bank's check made payable to you when you left the US, it fell outside the definition of negotiable instrument, and therefore outside the requirement to fill out the form or otherwise notify US authorities. Whether you had any required reporting to Canadian authorities, and whether those requirements were met (technically or constructively) by your handing the check to the Canadian border person for inspection, I don't know.

But that's not all-Individual US tax returns (Form 1040) ask whether you have had at any time during the year more than $10,000 in foriegn accounts, which term includes banks. If you did, you have to file Form TD F 90.22.1-See here:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/...218835,00.html

There's no tax due with the form but there's a tough penalty if you don't file it. And remember, it's $10,000 US so I imagine that even if you went with only $10,000, currency fluctuations may have throw you over that threshold for at least a short while.

As I said, I'm no expert. If you want to confirm this, I'd suggest calling the general help number at US Customs.

soitgoes

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

There are a number of issues--
Where would you have found a US Customs agent when leaving the US
Even though there's no outbound inspection, there are US agents at the border area due to their need to inspect incoming travelers and secure the border. Usually there will be an office you can go to.

Should you have reported this check to the US authorities prior to your departure from the US
I don't think this was required, as you had a check made out to you and not endorsed.

Should you have reported this check to Canadian authorities
I don't know if that counts for Canada's purposes. However, there's no harm in reporting it, which you did.

Does having money in a foreign bank account matter for tax purposes
Yes, you must file the appropriate paperwork with the Treasury if you had balances exceeding $10,000 (composite) at any point during the tax year.

Ceece

Thanks so much for all the quick responses. It seems to me as well, that due to the check being "Non-negotiable" , made out to me and not being endorsed until I physically made the deposit in my Canadian bank, that I didn't do anything wrong(hopefully).

I could be wrong about this as well, but it seems to me that since Canada and the U.S. have the same rule about money over $10,000 going OUT of the country, that one of the Canadian officers would have made me aware of this at the time. However, I assume they don't have any responsibility to that. I guess I should have been wise enough in the first place to have made sure it wouldn't be an issue beforehand. It just never even crossed my mind that it could possibly be.

I will be sure to fill out the Form TD F 90.22.1, though. I found out about that about a week ago and I'll make sure that's done!

mjcewl1284

+1

flyingfkb

That's hilarious.

xinerevelle

I'd have found the person at the bank who DOES know how to do a wire transfer. Who wants to carry around large gobs of cash or a check that could be easily forged? Not me! We just sold our house and paid an extra $30 to the closing company, plus a $7 incoming wire transfer fee at our credit union to avoid getting a check... especially since we were travelling the next day to our new home 500 miles away.

Mountain Trader

I agree. However international wire transfers are often very expensive and when coupled with the required currency conversion, can cost hundred of dollars. I'd be sure to figure out what an international wire transfer will cost you before pulling the trigger.

EOS

It was much reported last week in newspapers of repute and blogs etc that supposedly 'Sean Penn arrived in Haiti this week with a million dollars in a suitcase'.
Hmmm...
Makes you wonder about taking money out of country and into a ravaged island.
Is this possible?
Should he have done a wire transfer?

dnfuss

What you had was indeed what in law is considered a negotiable instrument, as checks almost always are. The test is not whether anyone can cash/use it. That is a test for whether or not it is a bearer instrument. But all of this is irrelevant. The IRS prohibition described in Pub 519 is against transporting what they define as "monetary instruments," and as your OP notes, the check you had is specifically excepted from that definition. You did nothing wrong. Having said that, cashier's checks are treated differently than the usual personal check for certain purposes, and it is not a great idea to use them when not needed. International wire transfers don't need to cost "hundreds of dollars." Maybe $25 instead of $10. Currency conversion is a separate issue, independent of whether the instrument is a check or a wire transfer. The next time you need a large amount of money to be deposited to a foreign bank, have a wire transfer done. If your local bank says they can't/won't/don't know how to do it or that it will cost you a fortune for the wiring, find another bank.

Mountain Trader

Currency conversion is never a separate issue when sending money from a US bank (dollars) to a bank in another country that uses a different currency. For example, to send a wire to a French bank, the US bank sends dollars and charges you a fee. The receiving bank will also charge a fee but will immediately convert your dollars to euros, and that conversion often involves a hefty percentage kept by the bank.

HSBC says they convert at wholesale rates for customers with large balances but the only person I know who used them for that wound up having to pull teeth at the european bank to get the big mark-up reduced.

If you can get the US bank to wire in the foreign currency, and if they convert it before transfer at a known, good wholesale rate, then the cost to do this might be very cheap. Charles Schwab used to be able to do this based on their affiliation with a large, international bank. That was several years ago and I don't know if that still holds.

If anyone knows how to get a transfer to a European bank done for $25 including fees and currency mark-up, it would be very helpful to share that information.

peachfront

We were not a customer but had a large amount to change from British pounds to U.S. dollars. (Big blackjack win) We started to walk out and the guy called us back to give us a much better deal. My friend thinks the individual clerks at HSBC at least in London may be receiving a commission on their "sales" so you have to play hardball. If you're willing to hold onto the pounds and use them another time, you appear to have a lot more negotiating power. Can't speak for US/Canada transactions...but since Canada is right there and in theory you might be going over that bridge all the time, I wouldn't take their first offer.

As far as the cash reporting form, I download it from the internet, because nobody ever has it when you're LEAVING the United States.