US: Not an LCC but LPC
Dec 1, 2008, 8:37 pm
#1
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US: Not an LCC but LPC
When I think of an LCC (Low Cost Carrier) I think of an Easy Jet, Southwest, Ryan Air, etc, where they offer an airfare then lower then the legacy airlines. An expectation of product is minimal.
I recently flew US PHL-FLL in F. The flight left at noon, scheduled for 2:45 minutes. No meal per policy, drinks served in plastic, some sort of “snack basket”. On return ,again of course, no meal, drinks served in plastic. I noticed the FA had served some pax coffee. I stopped her and asked her “is there coffee” to which she responded “yes”, then went in the back and chatted away with the other FA. I learned that I posed the question incorrectly. I should have asked if she would “serve” me coffee, rather then the “inventory control” I received. Eventually she came back to F and this time I correctly learned how to ask to actually receive a cup of coffee, not just the inventory of the coffee. Any future requests had to be made in the galley since she did not reappear in the aisle, except to go back and continue chatting with the other FA’s.
US airfares are not lower then the other legacy airlines, just their product (Actually Southwest offers a better product overall, no check in fees or soft drink, water or coffee fees in Y). I would suggest that since there fares are not, as a rule, as low as the traditional LCC, but their product is inferior to any of the major airlines, that they be labeled as an LPC , or Low Product Carrier. Fares are high, Product is low.
I recently flew US PHL-FLL in F. The flight left at noon, scheduled for 2:45 minutes. No meal per policy, drinks served in plastic, some sort of “snack basket”. On return ,again of course, no meal, drinks served in plastic. I noticed the FA had served some pax coffee. I stopped her and asked her “is there coffee” to which she responded “yes”, then went in the back and chatted away with the other FA. I learned that I posed the question incorrectly. I should have asked if she would “serve” me coffee, rather then the “inventory control” I received. Eventually she came back to F and this time I correctly learned how to ask to actually receive a cup of coffee, not just the inventory of the coffee. Any future requests had to be made in the galley since she did not reappear in the aisle, except to go back and continue chatting with the other FA’s.
US airfares are not lower then the other legacy airlines, just their product (Actually Southwest offers a better product overall, no check in fees or soft drink, water or coffee fees in Y). I would suggest that since there fares are not, as a rule, as low as the traditional LCC, but their product is inferior to any of the major airlines, that they be labeled as an LPC , or Low Product Carrier. Fares are high, Product is low.
Dec 1, 2008, 9:49 pm
#2
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interestingly, i just booked 5 of us for a february trip to TUL (for a wedding... not that I'm bitter about a small town OK wedding 2 hours from TUL or anything) and WN was far more expensive than any legacy. It's only one data point, but i think it helps to reinforce the power of WNs marketing and brand management - the whole group just assumed they were less expensive. The reality is that legacies were HALF the price. We booked on AA of course. 
Dec 1, 2008, 11:52 pm
#3
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I don't know exactly where you live, but based on your post I'll assume PHL. Out west US' fare are usually match WN, and sometimes lower. So the notion that US is always higher is probably due to living on the east coast.
Dec 2, 2008, 8:25 am
#4
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I agree that the US fares are the same as other legacy airlines and they have a lesser product. If US wants to be "the largest low fare airline" they need to have their fares as low as WN or Air Tran. WN flies from PHL so the fares should match them.
Even then those airlines offer free drinks and have good IFE.
Even then those airlines offer free drinks and have good IFE.
Dec 2, 2008, 9:26 am
#5
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: mystic island, nj, USA
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Playing with Excell instead of running an airline
Interesting thread.
It is ecomonically impossible for US Airways to be a LCC in any fashion other than stock ticker only. If you check out the CASM data for each airline you'll find US has one of the very highest CASM's in the United States.
One reason the F/C seating was reduced is it gave the company a lower CASM as there were more seats per A/C and more seats in the system divided over the same costs. Now you can and I would argue that doing that kind of thing is playing with Excell instead of running an airline.
Same goes with On Time Performance - Add 10 to 30 minutes into the schedule and make the DOT stats shine. Most airlines have ignored the number one cost metric in the airline business.
If you guessed minutes, time defined in 60-second intervals, you’re correct. They are the #1 resource and #1 cost-driver in any airline operation. Controlled and skillfully utilized, they can be the difference in profit and loss. Yet, they are squandered by the thousands every day as we see based on our observation of the schedule and the words straight out of the COO's mouth. More playing with Excell instead of running an airline.
So then in yet the last of a long series of customer unfriendly moves we have the current Fee Structure of here a nickle, there a dime, listen to the customers whine. Southwest Airlines is a slave to driving cost out of their business by feverishly turning aircraft and saving minutes. This increases aircraft and labor utilization, while improving the customer experience with a very high rate of on-time departures compared to other airlines. By being a slave to the clock airlines save money. Reduced taxi time, hassles of missed connections, all of which improves the customer experience and helps lower cost. playing with Excell instead of running an airline
In the end what you have is an airline that promises more and deliver even less than it's competition all with a fare structure designed to rape and pillage like the Mongol hoardes of a bygone age. What you have in the end is an airline that has poor customer/employee satisfaction and financials to match which is clearly the opposite of the premier LCC in the world WN.
Mr Kelleher has a very nice quote that sums up why US will NEVER be a LCC.
“You put your employees first. If you truly treat your employees with respect, they will treat your customers well, your customers will come back, and that’s what makes your shareholders happy. So there is no constituency at war with any other constituency. Ultimately, it’s shareholder value that you’re producing”.
It is ecomonically impossible for US Airways to be a LCC in any fashion other than stock ticker only. If you check out the CASM data for each airline you'll find US has one of the very highest CASM's in the United States.
One reason the F/C seating was reduced is it gave the company a lower CASM as there were more seats per A/C and more seats in the system divided over the same costs. Now you can and I would argue that doing that kind of thing is playing with Excell instead of running an airline.
Same goes with On Time Performance - Add 10 to 30 minutes into the schedule and make the DOT stats shine. Most airlines have ignored the number one cost metric in the airline business.
If you guessed minutes, time defined in 60-second intervals, you’re correct. They are the #1 resource and #1 cost-driver in any airline operation. Controlled and skillfully utilized, they can be the difference in profit and loss. Yet, they are squandered by the thousands every day as we see based on our observation of the schedule and the words straight out of the COO's mouth. More playing with Excell instead of running an airline.
So then in yet the last of a long series of customer unfriendly moves we have the current Fee Structure of here a nickle, there a dime, listen to the customers whine. Southwest Airlines is a slave to driving cost out of their business by feverishly turning aircraft and saving minutes. This increases aircraft and labor utilization, while improving the customer experience with a very high rate of on-time departures compared to other airlines. By being a slave to the clock airlines save money. Reduced taxi time, hassles of missed connections, all of which improves the customer experience and helps lower cost. playing with Excell instead of running an airline
In the end what you have is an airline that promises more and deliver even less than it's competition all with a fare structure designed to rape and pillage like the Mongol hoardes of a bygone age. What you have in the end is an airline that has poor customer/employee satisfaction and financials to match which is clearly the opposite of the premier LCC in the world WN.
Mr Kelleher has a very nice quote that sums up why US will NEVER be a LCC.
“You put your employees first. If you truly treat your employees with respect, they will treat your customers well, your customers will come back, and that’s what makes your shareholders happy. So there is no constituency at war with any other constituency. Ultimately, it’s shareholder value that you’re producing”.
Dec 2, 2008, 9:29 am
#6
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Well, what US should do is have their fares match their product level.
PEx were actually THE first US-based carrier to charge fees.
Fee for checked bags, fee for soft drinks and snacks...
BUT, their prices were commensurate with their offerings.
LCC = LPC.
US needs to bridge the chasm of disparity and commit to be a Kettle carrier a la PEx, OR they need to bring back services and not nickel and dime pax to reattract and retain their business elites.
PEx were actually THE first US-based carrier to charge fees.
Fee for checked bags, fee for soft drinks and snacks...
BUT, their prices were commensurate with their offerings.
LCC = LPC.
US needs to bridge the chasm of disparity and commit to be a Kettle carrier a la PEx, OR they need to bring back services and not nickel and dime pax to reattract and retain their business elites.
Dec 2, 2008, 9:45 am
#7
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What is keeping US on life support, even though the respirations and blood pressure of the enterprise are both dropping fast, are the unfortunate souls who will go down with the ship in PHL, CLT and PHX. Their numbers are dwindling remarkably fast, but the die hards are still mistakenly convinced that flying non-stop on US is better than connecting on a much better carrier with broad scale decent execution.
Nothing is working at US, even though a smidgen of window dressing was applied by re-instituting elite bonus miles a couple of weeks ago.
LCC is an illusion in motion, a growing percentage of passengers and headquarters employees/executives know that, and they are now well beyond the point at which improvements would have saved the enterprise.
To Piney's point, I love watching any WN a/c taxi when it is not in a line behind other carrier's a/c. Their speed at taxi and pulling into the gate is at least 2X that of US (and all other carriers). Watched it again, repeatedly, yesterday at SNA. And, not once in my life have I been on a WN a/c when it stopped short of a gate waiting for stuff to be moved out of the way, or for a gate agent on the jet bridge.
US, its executive leaders and its very sleepy Board have been living a lie for 3 years. And, the Arizona Republic here in PHX has been lying with them.
They will all get their due shortly, and sadly, so will many US customers who have not been reading the writing on the wall during the last 2.5 years.
Nothing is working at US, even though a smidgen of window dressing was applied by re-instituting elite bonus miles a couple of weeks ago.
LCC is an illusion in motion, a growing percentage of passengers and headquarters employees/executives know that, and they are now well beyond the point at which improvements would have saved the enterprise.
To Piney's point, I love watching any WN a/c taxi when it is not in a line behind other carrier's a/c. Their speed at taxi and pulling into the gate is at least 2X that of US (and all other carriers). Watched it again, repeatedly, yesterday at SNA. And, not once in my life have I been on a WN a/c when it stopped short of a gate waiting for stuff to be moved out of the way, or for a gate agent on the jet bridge.
US, its executive leaders and its very sleepy Board have been living a lie for 3 years. And, the Arizona Republic here in PHX has been lying with them.
They will all get their due shortly, and sadly, so will many US customers who have not been reading the writing on the wall during the last 2.5 years.
Dec 2, 2008, 2:00 pm
#8
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The predetermined conclusions and thinly veiled agendas are amusing, but inaccurate.
Ask most US pilots (and perhaps Jim can chime in), and they'll tell you that they think the speed WN taxi's is not safe. Has it caused an accident - that's debatable - but to call it "bad management" or "management by Excel" (with one "L") is nothing more than pushing an agenda. Just think of the "management compromising safety to make a buck" we've seen...
Adding Y seats and reducing F seats wasn't "spreadsheet management" when loads were in the 90%+ range over the summer - it was adding operational flexibility (seats to but IRROP'd butts), and adding in a product folks would pay for, while subtracting one they generally don't. As loads fall, the CASM "trick" is an added benefit... but so are seats to route IRROP'd pax.
The short answer is that EVERYONE wants to hate management, and claim employees have been nothing but crapped on. And they have been crapped on. A couple of BK's will do that to you. But it is a fallacy to think that workgroups that get into fist fights with each other (ramp) or spend years bickering over binding arbitration and suing each other (pilots) are acting in the best interest of anyone. It's workgroups that have lost touch with reality. (including management). If you go back a few years, you'll see the "CCY is the devil" show is replaying, with "CCY" replaced with "Tempe" or "Sandcastle".
Ask most US pilots (and perhaps Jim can chime in), and they'll tell you that they think the speed WN taxi's is not safe. Has it caused an accident - that's debatable - but to call it "bad management" or "management by Excel" (with one "L"
) is nothing more than pushing an agenda. Just think of the "management compromising safety to make a buck" we've seen... Adding Y seats and reducing F seats wasn't "spreadsheet management" when loads were in the 90%+ range over the summer - it was adding operational flexibility (seats to but IRROP'd butts), and adding in a product folks would pay for, while subtracting one they generally don't. As loads fall, the CASM "trick" is an added benefit... but so are seats to route IRROP'd pax.
The short answer is that EVERYONE wants to hate management, and claim employees have been nothing but crapped on. And they have been crapped on. A couple of BK's will do that to you. But it is a fallacy to think that workgroups that get into fist fights with each other (ramp) or spend years bickering over binding arbitration and suing each other (pilots) are acting in the best interest of anyone. It's workgroups that have lost touch with reality. (including management). If you go back a few years, you'll see the "CCY is the devil" show is replaying, with "CCY" replaced with "Tempe" or "Sandcastle".
Dec 2, 2008, 6:17 pm
#9
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Dec 3, 2008, 9:32 am
#10
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Ask most US pilots (and perhaps Jim can chime in), and they'll tell you that they think the speed WN taxi's is not safe. Has it caused an accident - that's debatable - but to call it "bad management" or "management by Excel" (with one "L" ) is nothing more than pushing an agenda. Just think of the "management compromising safety to make a buck" we've seen...
) is nothing more than pushing an agenda. Just think of the "management compromising safety to make a buck" we've seen...As far as pricing goes, I fly a lot in the markets where WN and US compete head-to-head. I fly both airlines regularly. More often than not (but not always), I can find cheaper flights on US than on WN for the flight times I need. WN's marketing strategy is to portray themselves as having lower fares, but the portrayal does not match the reality. Even if you wish to consume items from US' "a la carte" pricing (checked luggage, preferred seats, drinks on board), you will often find US to be cheaper.
I am agnostic as to which airline offers a better product. I used to think US did, but by charging for drinks and taking away the IFE, I can't say one airline is better than the other to fly (especially since WN improved their boarding procedures for travellers-in-the-know).
Dec 3, 2008, 9:57 am
#11
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As far as pricing goes, I fly a lot in the markets where WN and US compete head-to-head. I fly both airlines regularly. More often than not (but not always), I can find cheaper flights on US than on WN for the flight times I need. WN's marketing strategy is to portray themselves as having lower fares, but the portrayal does not match the reality. Even if you wish to consume items from US' "a la carte" pricing (checked luggage, preferred seats, drinks on board), you will often find US to be cheaper.
Dec 3, 2008, 10:01 am
#12
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Depends... WN is rarely the absolute cheapest, but they will also never screw you. THAT's where they make their money. Take a look at some east coast routes - WN is sometimes the cheapest, sometimes not... but their flexible fares are reasonable. Further, the lack of change fees is a strong value prop for many.
Dec 3, 2008, 10:10 am
#13
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I was one of the die-hards in Philly...but, I've switched to Delta. However, I still debate with myself that flying non-stop w/ US might be better...but, then I return to US and remember how bad it was and I go running back to Delta........
Dec 3, 2008, 10:25 am
#14
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From my decades of frequent flying "experience," I would submit that NO "First World" airline's connecting service is better than its rival's nonstop service -- with one possible exception. That exception is if the nonstop carrier's operational performance is so poor that it is likely that taking the connecting trip will be easier!
No objective analysis of US' service right now would meet that standard of unreliability. Indeed, they are currently the number one USA airline in on-time performance for 2008.
So if you really want to make your travel "easier," I would recommend getting over whatever emotional issues you have with US and take their nonstops (unless, of course, you have other nonstop options available on other carriers, or are choosing flights for other reasons, like maximum ff mileage accrual).
Dec 3, 2008, 10:33 am
#15
Join Date: May 2008
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...and the perception that WN isn't raping you with extra fees goes a long way with customer loyalty and a positive perception of the airline? All over this board folks like me shout that fares should be transparent and this "nickel and diming" fee structure is a little like bait and switch. WN's fares may be a little more in some markets than US, but isn't that what most of us are asking for? A true airfare with no hidden gottcha's? When you have to change your plans, WN is much more customer friendly too!
As for the airplane speed at taxi, I really hadn't noticed much of a difference on the few occasions I have flown on a Southwest jet. I would just say look at the safety record of WN and if there were issues of bent metal on the ramp due to over aggressive taxi speeds, something tells me WN's management would change their pilot's behavior by mandate. Since there has been nothing noted on this subject, it must not be a problem. If aircraft attempt to break the sound barrier at taxi, the ground controllers usually chime in and tell them to slow down.
A short comment on the F/A's joking during a safety briefing...other than being slightly annoying at times, the FAR content is met, customers get the info they need and the mood of the cabin is generally lifted. What is so wrong with that? Most people don’t listen to the safety briefing anyway so using a little comedy actually gets the PAX attention better than the monotone announcement most F/A’s deliver or what is spoken from the pre-recorded message CRJ’s have installed.
Lighten up people!
As for the airplane speed at taxi, I really hadn't noticed much of a difference on the few occasions I have flown on a Southwest jet. I would just say look at the safety record of WN and if there were issues of bent metal on the ramp due to over aggressive taxi speeds, something tells me WN's management would change their pilot's behavior by mandate. Since there has been nothing noted on this subject, it must not be a problem. If aircraft attempt to break the sound barrier at taxi, the ground controllers usually chime in and tell them to slow down.
A short comment on the F/A's joking during a safety briefing...other than being slightly annoying at times, the FAR content is met, customers get the info they need and the mood of the cabin is generally lifted. What is so wrong with that? Most people don’t listen to the safety briefing anyway so using a little comedy actually gets the PAX attention better than the monotone announcement most F/A’s deliver or what is spoken from the pre-recorded message CRJ’s have installed.
Lighten up people!