New US policy: No more 500 mile minimum per segment
Feb 17, 2008, 5:52 am
#301
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Programs: AA EP; UA 2P; Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond, Starwood Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 194
I'm afraid I have a slightly different opinion on this. If you are talking about the strict letter of the law, then yes, US has clearly stated in their terms and conditions that they can change their program at any time.
If you are talking about their interaction with their customers, then this move is horse hockey. For the CP's this may not make much of a difference. I'm assuming they make their miles with transcons or international. For me, there were years when the 500 mile minimum was the difference between SP and GP. Big impact.
Here's my story. A job relocation in 1997 took me to US country. Oh, I had choices, but US was the dominant airline at the time. They said join our FF program and be loyal to us and here is all the good stuff you will get. So, since 1997 I have been either SP or GP. In effect, it's almost like a friendship. But, this friend is turning out to not be a friend at all. I have too much respect for myself to continue to associate with a "friend" that likes me one day and doesn't like me the next. So, my GP status is finished 29-Feb.
Through the good graces of folks at FT, I switched to UA. I'm not a demanding person. I appreciate everything and the folks at UA have made me welcome.
Flew enough in 2007 to make 2P again. Have been up front way more than my last years at US. Even if I'm not up front I have E+ which for me is just as good. But the best part is they treat me like a friend where both parties appreciate the other.
So I'll miss some of the employees. I'll remember the good times when I first started using them and they were appreciative of my business but I will spend my time with the friends that consider me an equal, not someone to be bullied.
If you are talking about their interaction with their customers, then this move is horse hockey. For the CP's this may not make much of a difference. I'm assuming they make their miles with transcons or international. For me, there were years when the 500 mile minimum was the difference between SP and GP. Big impact.
Here's my story. A job relocation in 1997 took me to US country. Oh, I had choices, but US was the dominant airline at the time. They said join our FF program and be loyal to us and here is all the good stuff you will get. So, since 1997 I have been either SP or GP. In effect, it's almost like a friendship. But, this friend is turning out to not be a friend at all. I have too much respect for myself to continue to associate with a "friend" that likes me one day and doesn't like me the next. So, my GP status is finished 29-Feb.
Through the good graces of folks at FT, I switched to UA. I'm not a demanding person. I appreciate everything and the folks at UA have made me welcome.
Flew enough in 2007 to make 2P again. Have been up front way more than my last years at US. Even if I'm not up front I have E+ which for me is just as good. But the best part is they treat me like a friend where both parties appreciate the other.
So I'll miss some of the employees. I'll remember the good times when I first started using them and they were appreciative of my business but I will spend my time with the friends that consider me an equal, not someone to be bullied.
The reality is that airlines are for profit and they are perfectly entitled to do things that they feel wlll generate more profit. I suspect US weighed their options and felt that this move was superior to raising prices, charging more miles per award ticket, or other options. It certainly could be that US is taking a decision that will cost them more than it will save them (because of the plethora of reasons that I'm sure will be posted here within minutes), but accusing them victimizing customers is absurd. Free markets give you choices - they don't owe you anything.
Feb 17, 2008, 6:18 am
#302
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MHT, CHS
Programs: DL DM, Hilton Dia, Avis Pres Club
Posts: 1,248
I have been a CP since the program started until the end of month, when I will be gold, but it doesn't matter since with this latest more I won't be flying US any more
When I fly MHT-LGA in the future it will as a United code share ticket.
Also, this moves effects me alot since my CP status has usually been made with segments. I a the 'nut" that pays $600.00 one way to fly MHT-LGA-SYR. That is over a buck a mile. If they can't give me 500 miles for each segment then US doesn't deserve any of my business
When I fly MHT-LGA in the future it will as a United code share ticket.
Also, this moves effects me alot since my CP status has usually been made with segments. I a the 'nut" that pays $600.00 one way to fly MHT-LGA-SYR. That is over a buck a mile. If they can't give me 500 miles for each segment then US doesn't deserve any of my business
Feb 17, 2008, 6:46 am
#303
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PHX
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,377
As an example, the DM program could be structured to give no award seats on it's own metal and still make a very nice profit. The miles US FF's accumulate could be "spent" entirely on UA/LH etc. and DM would still make money. Indeed, since short haul flights are the most costly for US, it might actually save them money if FF redeemed their miles on flights to Europe using UA, instead of coach flights on US express. This also allows US to sell more of those pricey BOS-PHL seats rather than give them away as awards.
I don't know how the *A partners price seats amongst themselves, but it might be a loophole in the program that one partner whose product is not perceived as desirable might make good use of their other partners available seats.
Feb 17, 2008, 7:07 am
#304
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: FLL & PIT
Programs: Marriott Platinum for Life.
Posts: 1,235
I just don't get it ??
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
Feb 17, 2008, 7:19 am
#305
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 170
So, what is the general consensus on the best FF program for those based on the East Coast?
I just looked at CO's and it seems pretty good. I like the auto upgrades and the top qualification requirements are less stringent. I'd miss the 10k EQM from my credit card (CO gives 2.5k). I'm not into fare classes so I'm not sure whether most of my flights would get 1 or 2 points. What else is good/bad?
It looks like UA limits the # of upgrades and forces you to call/go online to get an upgrade - I hate that. Economy plus sounds nice. I could get the 10k EQMs via their credit card, but it would take $35k in spending. What else?
I've not looked at DL b/c I seem to recall their reward mileage rqts were much higher than the others.
I just looked at CO's and it seems pretty good. I like the auto upgrades and the top qualification requirements are less stringent. I'd miss the 10k EQM from my credit card (CO gives 2.5k). I'm not into fare classes so I'm not sure whether most of my flights would get 1 or 2 points. What else is good/bad?
It looks like UA limits the # of upgrades and forces you to call/go online to get an upgrade - I hate that. Economy plus sounds nice. I could get the 10k EQMs via their credit card, but it would take $35k in spending. What else?
I've not looked at DL b/c I seem to recall their reward mileage rqts were much higher than the others.
Feb 17, 2008, 7:32 am
#306
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
Judge for yourself - from this weeks employee questions:
Q: I heard about these DM policy. Why are you enforcing the quick ticketing fee when booking online?
A: As you know, fuel is at a record high, and is our greatest expense. We made this decision for several reasons, 1) to offset the rising cost of fuel, and 2) Award tickets purchased within 14 days of departure represent a significant opportunity cost to the airline. The average fare paid by a customer booking within 14 days of departure is significantly higher than a fare purchased well in advance. This fee is an attempt to re-capture a small portion of the revenue US Airways could realize if it were to sell the seat.
Q: Do any other airlines award miles per segment instead of a base minimum?
A: Currently we’re the first airline to do this. All the miles we award add up to free tickets. The more miles we give away the more free tickets we give away and the fewer real revenue tickets we sell. In a time of extraordinary fuel prices we can't afford to give people miles that they don't actually fly. It’s the same rationale as the 18 month expiration policy (which most OA followed). Miles sitting out there get turned into free tickets and lost revenue. We can't afford to give things away like we used to. We also continue to offer the most generous first class upgrade program for elites. On average we upgrade further out than anyone else and we continue to spend mightily for that. We're putting our resources where our best customers have told us it’s most important and provides them the most value.
Jim
Q: I heard about these DM policy. Why are you enforcing the quick ticketing fee when booking online?
A: As you know, fuel is at a record high, and is our greatest expense. We made this decision for several reasons, 1) to offset the rising cost of fuel, and 2) Award tickets purchased within 14 days of departure represent a significant opportunity cost to the airline. The average fare paid by a customer booking within 14 days of departure is significantly higher than a fare purchased well in advance. This fee is an attempt to re-capture a small portion of the revenue US Airways could realize if it were to sell the seat.
Q: Do any other airlines award miles per segment instead of a base minimum?
A: Currently we’re the first airline to do this. All the miles we award add up to free tickets. The more miles we give away the more free tickets we give away and the fewer real revenue tickets we sell. In a time of extraordinary fuel prices we can't afford to give people miles that they don't actually fly. It’s the same rationale as the 18 month expiration policy (which most OA followed). Miles sitting out there get turned into free tickets and lost revenue. We can't afford to give things away like we used to. We also continue to offer the most generous first class upgrade program for elites. On average we upgrade further out than anyone else and we continue to spend mightily for that. We're putting our resources where our best customers have told us it’s most important and provides them the most value.
Jim
Holy s**t!!!! US is either stupid -- or lying through their teeth. Amazing.
Feb 17, 2008, 9:08 am
#307
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: CoFounder and Chairman, FFOCUS (Frequent Flyers Organized and concerned about Unacceptable Service.
Posts: 1,341
My guess is all of the above.
They are at best disingenouous.
The cost of fuel has nothing to do with this stupid decision, and it IS an all out assault on customers. It will backfire, however.
There are many other options which US has NOT chosen which could have saved more money by far than what they have done, and they instead choose to stick it to their highest yield customers.
Time will tell, but methinks this will cost them FAR more than what they thought they could save....
They are at best disingenouous.
The cost of fuel has nothing to do with this stupid decision, and it IS an all out assault on customers. It will backfire, however.
There are many other options which US has NOT chosen which could have saved more money by far than what they have done, and they instead choose to stick it to their highest yield customers.
Time will tell, but methinks this will cost them FAR more than what they thought they could save....
Feb 17, 2008, 9:19 am
#308
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
Indeed, since short haul flights are the most costly for US, it might actually save them money if FF redeemed their miles on flights to Europe using UA, instead of coach flights on US express. This also allows US to sell more of those pricey BOS-PHL seats rather than give them away as awards.
As for the first point, also undoubtedly true in some cases - particularly on routes where true lcc competition (regardless of distance) causes fares to be low. In general, however, the yield on the short-haul provides a larger margin above cost (CASM) than on long haul as long as you compare equivalent fare buckets.
Where that breaks down in some markets is with the short-haul connecting to long haul. There are cases where the fare (and thus the yield) is actually less for the connecting passenger than for the hub-originating passenger (using BTS average fare data ILM-SFO @ $310 vs CLT-SFO @ $313, for example)) . So effectively the short segment is given away (or even saves the passenger a few bucks). Of course, that's the traditional legacy pricing model at work - when you offer the only non-stop flights you charge more vs when you offer merely another of the connecting opportunities. There's absolutely nothing preventing US (or any other legacy) from setting fares on a more distance related basis.
Jim
Feb 17, 2008, 11:07 am
#309
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
So if my flight circles the airport a couple of times, I earn more miles, right?
Feb 17, 2008, 11:19 am
#310
Join Date: Apr 2004
Programs: AA EXP, HH Gold,MR Gold, Avis CHM
Posts: 2,300
Maybe I'm a cynic, but I think US saw a large decline in spring and summer bookings, announces the new policy, and thinks many of those who fly short-haul trips will make tons of bookings before March 1 (or whatever date is required for travel after May 1) in order to continue to get 500 miles per segment on those bookings. Later on, perhaps in April or May, Tempe will announce that it listened to the concerns of it VFFs, that it really values their opinions, and that it will rescind that part of the new policy.
Feb 17, 2008, 11:26 am
#311
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Athens, WV, USA; a US cockroach long before it was in FFOCUS; now a lowly US5 for only the 2nd time in 20 years.
Programs: US5
Posts: 3,050
Feb 17, 2008, 11:46 am
#312
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MHT, CHS
Programs: DL DM, Hilton Dia, Avis Pres Club
Posts: 1,248
I just don't get it ??
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
So I have to agree there are too many 'fake' preferreds
Feb 17, 2008, 11:59 am
#313
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: BOS
Programs: JetBlue Mosaic, WN A List Preferred, Hyatt Globalest, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, IHG Spire
Posts: 3,966
It Wasn't That Much Better Recent Crystal City Management
Some have alluded to the former US east crystal city management somehow being better. However, I would say that the events on that Black Tuesday:
Was it Tues 2002? Anyway I would say that was the ultimate massacre (to borrow a word from the other thread) on an airlines customers. Delta's Simply Good Business probably gets 2nd place, though that policy is now gone. I'll keep nominations open for 3rd place.
This is bad news, but I'm not sure it warrants third place.
But I'm just trying to say and remind all of you that the grass was not all that greener with the old management at least in its most recent premerger iteration. A little greener sure, but not that much, and the old management with Black Tuesday was certainly not "your friend" either.
Was it Tues 2002? Anyway I would say that was the ultimate massacre (to borrow a word from the other thread) on an airlines customers. Delta's Simply Good Business probably gets 2nd place, though that policy is now gone. I'll keep nominations open for 3rd place.
This is bad news, but I'm not sure it warrants third place.
But I'm just trying to say and remind all of you that the grass was not all that greener with the old management at least in its most recent premerger iteration. A little greener sure, but not that much, and the old management with Black Tuesday was certainly not "your friend" either.
Feb 17, 2008, 12:38 pm
#314
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 30,003
I just don't get it ??
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
First they introduced "Everything Counts". Then they mysteriously created the invitation only "Executive Preferred".
And now they want to take the miles away??
Something doesn't sit right.
What is going on in the Sandcastle?
Did they give away TOO MANY miles and preferred statuses with "Everything Counts"? And now they have TOO MANY fake elites and they have to thin the herd?
Feb 17, 2008, 3:09 pm
#315
Moderator: New York City and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2007
Programs: AA PLT, Natl EC
Posts: 10,855
I read about this development on another website. Wow. I just booked my first flight on USAirways in a year since they completely screwed up my last vacation with them. Wanted to keep my remaining 100k miles active with them for another 18 months. I just wonder if getting rid of the 500 mile minimum makes my miles worth $3 vs $2 now since its tougher to get miles!
Depending on your home city and travel patterns, you might look at AA as well. Upgrades are only complimentary at the top Excecutive Platinum level - Platinum and Gold elites get 500-mi upgrades (4 for every 10K mi flown or $30 each online) - but, of course, the F product is actually much better than US, especially on transcons on 762 and 763 aircraft. The AA network is also extensive (more so when you consider OneWorld), and the treatment of elites is generally consistent and positive IME.