Eight Seat FC
 

I am browsing other forums, and people absolutely loathe the 8-seat FC planes. It just happens that most 8-seat FC planes are A319 (UA and AA), so they direct their hatred towards A319 (it's uncomfortable! it's MX prone!). I just find it so funny that they blame the aircraft's comfort and safety record and come up with all kinds of reasons to attack the poor plane, when the reality is that they can't upgrade!

As US has the most A319s, may be in the world, I laugh at the comments about how A319 is a deathtrap or worse (seriously, look at the AA forum and see their discussion about A319).

Thankfully, US doesn't have the 8 FC planes (yet). I know they had 737/757 with 8 FC seats, but I don't know if they still exist?

But I am afraid that this may be where domestic configuration is headed. No more freebies to elites. I recently booked a UA domestic F on A319, and after I booked, it is now down to F2, for a flight that is 6 months away! No upgrades for you. They must hate me over there, the reason I am posting it over here ;)

The only way you will see F capacity kept at current levels is if F sales support it. US is selling some great FC fares, so that may be the saving grace.

Agree that US is selling great FC fares- just picked some up at half the price of United/American/Delta to the same location.

Yes, as many posters on FT noted, sometimes the US F price is lower than Y! Even for transcon. I once flew PHL-LAS where the F fare was under $700 round trip (it may even have been closer to 600). Of course, I cannot do this all the time, but if someone else is paying...

Personal anecdote. I have been on 8 FC on 757. I think there was 8 FC 737 (HP version) too, but I honestly can't remember. But that 757 flight was LAS-PIT, and I was upgraded. Didn't think much of it at the time, but after the flight, I thought to myself "holy cow, I was pretty darn lucky!" I asked the FA during the flight if it was an easy work for him, with just 2 rows, and he just winked.

But back to the topic. Yeah, I absolutely expect FC seat numbers to come down, except may be on premium routes (like UA p.s.). VX has 8 FC. B6 I think will have 12 or 16, but they intend to fly on premium routes. But the AA A319 having 8 FC is telling.

The sword of Damocles...

The flip side is that if US isn't getting much more for a FC seat than a coach seat, there's no benefit to having too many FC seats. An extra 2 seats per row as well as the cost savings of no free booze, meals, etc.

Jim

You need to keep a decent amount of F seats to keep your frequent fliers from running to the competition as well. Frequent upgrades has kept me loyal to US. If I was flying in the back of the bus I'd be bargain hunting instead.

That and the fact that foreign travellers need domestic service while in the US. People used to flying whatever amounts to domestic business class while overseas will pay for and book domestic F here.

EXACTLY. I can count on two hands the number of coach flights I have had in the last 4 years. The only time I was not in a FC cabin was if I did a move up, even then many times I still made it, 150+ segments per year for 5+ years

The last 3 posts sorta prove my point...

If you start getting fewer free upgrades, who are you going to go to - the other legacies are already worse for upgrades than US from what I read here.

Foreign travelers, if on paid tickets, aren't normally paying for all or even most of the FC seats. Otherwise ya'll wouldn't be getting all those upgrades.

I didn't say they'd eliminate FC. Just that every FC seat handed out free carries a cost and US seems to hand out a pretty high percentage of FC seats. Take one row of FC out, put a coach row in and the 1st two rows of coach (12 seats) become US' version of E+. They still have a minimum of 8 FC seats to sell and still give away any not sold or going to full Y fare purchasers.

Leave Envoy alone if they sell enough of the seats on average.

Jim

You are absolutely right. Where are we going to turn to if we are unhappy with our current program? At least for the legacies, we are faced with the following choices: UA with their ToD and other problems, DL with SkyPesos (and their deteriorating relationship with SkyTeam partners, and as a frequent trans pac flier, I cannot have them having any problem with KE). And then there is AA. AA is still in bankruptcy. I don't care how AA supporters drum up how great things are now with the record profits, AA is still in bankruptcy.

You will find the meanest, vilest comment on the AA forum. Particularly when it comes to merger and upgrades. One poster there made a mistake of calling EXP upgrade a "freebie," and he/she is beat up like there is no tomorrow. I mean the attack is so vile it is getting personal. And the merger. I am not going into details what they say about it; many of you already encountered them. You should see how some AA EXPs look down on US. They even attack anyone who gives any business to US (like US elites) for supporting a "crooked organization."

For the record, I am against the merger, and I made it clear on other posts. I am a strictly a consumer, and I want competition. But if the merger happens, I would not be at least a bit surprised if some AA EXP abuses or even PHYSICALLY ASSAULTS an US elite because of the PERCEIVED lack of upgrade. It sounds silly, but it could happen. I am not joking. People have been attacked for any and all stupid reasons, so what will stop them now?

I heard that 90% of FC seats for all domestic airlines are upgrades, and I actually didn't believe it at first, but there are more evidence to suggest it (may be not true for US since the F fare is cheaper). This post from UA basically sums up why elites are so spoiled by upgrades (and why airlines try not to fly wide bodies, domestically)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/21631514-post49.html

Interesting...

I believe this. I tend to peek at the printout on flights to see status etc. I think 10/12 or 14/16 are upgrades. That is the reason I keep flying US. If that goes away, so do I. I do 150+ segments annually. I can easily put 75 of them on Jet Blue, not for upgrades, but for direct flights to New England.

You can screw with a lot, but when you start to screw with upgrades, you will see a LOT of grumbles.

Yes, AA is still in bankruptcy, but US has been there twice with DUI Dougie. AA also has a pile of cash on hand that said CEO really would like to get his hands on. US has limited options without AA.

I just came over to US board today to see what the US Elites were saying about the merger. At least on the AA board there is engaging conversation. Here I find outrageous generalizations that imply that AA EXP's thugs.

For the record most of my upgrades aren't free as I often fly paid F or use my AAirpass, which due to the cost often does get me an upgrade. When it doesn't come through I happily take my seat in Y because that's what I ultimately paid for.

Not really interesting at all.

I am not going to say much directly to the previous post, because I expected such response. I don't want to get into protracted arguments/speculations (we've all seen that movie before).

I still stand by my comments that abuse or assaults could happen. I didn't say at all that all AA elites (for that matter, any elites including US) will abuse or look down on others, but there are definitely some that are out of line, at least on the FT posts. I say this could happen, because the airplane is a tense place already. I have witnesses way too many incidences on the plane the last 10 years or so that escalated to confrontation (the worst I witnesses was shoving match and a near fist fight, but most were verbal attacks) for the slightest of reasons.

But if the confrontation involves something that is truly important (or perceived to be important) for the party, who knows what can happen? (Worse if alcohol is involved).

I think 2 things are to blame. One is the classism that exist, at least on the FT world. There seems to be a food chain of legacy > LCC > bus, train, and there exists prejudices and other preconceptions. Again, I am not saying all elites are like this, but the attitude exists. The other, of course, is the airline industry itself. They have made it possible to have these tense moments, and unless it is fixed, I see no better tomorrow. So my OP about the 8 seat FC is the part that the airline is contributing to the tenser environment.

My passion is that we all have decent transportation options and dignified experience to go along with it. But at this points, both the public and the industry is at fault for creating the current situation. As long as deep division and classism exist, and the airline is making the flying experience not a joy anymore, I am genuinely worried.

I apologize if any AA members were offended. Again, I said some can be irrational, not all. I may have picked other programs, but the amount of hate from AA board to US was such that I wanted to take an example. My reaction was instinctive in that I wanted to protect the perceived weaker party.

For the record, AA is still in bankruptcy because of the merger. The bankruptcy judge approved the POR a while back, contingent on the outcome of the DOJ suit. I have absolutely no doubt that with no merger AA would have emerged from bankruptcy no later than August and probably earlier. Remember, the pending merger caused several things that delayed the process - rewriting the POR from the originally planned stand alone exit, shareholder approval requiring scheduling and holding shareholder votes at both companies, regulatory approval on both sides of the Atlantic and the DOJ suit. The result of all those - probably Feb or later before the judge rules.

Also for the record, Parker hasn't run an airline that declared bankruptcy yet. The AWA bankruptcy was long over a decade before Parker became CEO - I'm not sure that he was even at AWA when it filed for bankruptcy in 1990. The two US bankruptcies were before the merger was even announced. I guess it could be argued that Parker had some influence on decisions made at US in the months before the merger officially occured, but antitrust laws limited how much he could do.

AA does have a lot of cash - $7+ billion at the end of the 3rd quarter. Of course, it also has debt commensurate with that cash. But as the saying goes, if you owe the bank $100,000 and are behind in payments you're in trouble but if you owe them billions they're in trouble.

Jim

Forgot to add ;) I said 2 sources are to blame, but you could make it 3 (public, elite, airline). I've said much about the elites and airlines, but the general public, as long as people demand low fares, but expect wide seat, big legroom, etc., it will also contribute to tense situations. As we all know, it all comes from the expectations, for both elites and casual flier, for getting something, but the harsh realities (tight seat pitch/width, overhead bin, set up by the airlines :mad:) will make the uncomfortable situations possible.

I don't know. We should temper our expectations (for both elites and non-elites) but the airlines must do their part to make it better. It is like chasing one's tail...