TomBascom

The first time around they were too concerned about setting some sort of minimum time in bk record. They didn't do enough about the pension, they didn't get effective work rule changes, they didn't decide to whack PIT until the last second and they didn't have a fully formed and completely realistic business plan in place.

Although the bp was quite a bit better than anything UA has managed so far it still had too much faith in the return of the business traveler and was pretty much blind to the threat of SWA. They paid lip service to LCCs but didn't really believe it. They believe it now. UA & DL obviously still don't get it. AA, CO & NW might be catching on but US' proximity to doom sharpens their focus...

TMK

There is no doubt that US Airways has been mismanaged for quite a while and is getting the stuffing knocked out them by the LCCs. US Airways may in fact not survive Chapter 11 (if they can't promptly line up DIP financing, etc.). As they are my preferred carrier, and I'm sitting on several hundred thousand DM miles, I of course don't want to see that.

My "loss" however is nothing compared to the havoc US Airways' belly flop would do for the hardworking people who make up that airline. The Alabama Pension Fund, the banks, etc. have all mitigated and diversified their risks, while in a macro sense of course bad, they will survive. To some extent (for sure) the employees (via their unions) have participated in this process but I think it's really hard to point fingers at them -- they're trying to earn a decent living and pay their bills. I can already hear all of the callous posters ("go find another job if you don't like it, if they don't pay you enough, etc.") -- how may of them have changed jobs under those circumstances when they have families, mortgage payments, etc? It's simply not human nature for 98% of the people -- the devil you know is worse than the one you don't.

I understand the macro reasons while people lose their jobs, I've been involved in downsizings/restructurings and I've released a few people in my career -- and you know what? It never gets easier, and for the impacted people involved it is a terrible life blow -- some don't recover.

So when we are flying US Airways over the coming weeks/months, I intend to try and show a little more compassion for their situation -- I know I wouldn't want to be in it. And you know what, if I don't get a green lime, or crushed ice, or a drink before take off, or stellar meal service, etc. the world isn't going to end for me.

Best of luck US Airways' employees.

SDF_Traveler

The big concern is US has little to no unencumbered assets left which will be needed for DIP (Debtor-in-Possession) financing to raise operating funds. From what I understand, US has some cash on-hand, but once that is dry (and it won't last long), where is US planning to get a new influx of money from?

It'll be interesting to see what their plans are. I hope US makes it, but unfortunately, I don't believe they will.

Fly

Match the LCC's?!? OMG, they already did that....now US wants even more! Here's a copy of what the company wanted....note the section that if they didn't work above 80 hours in an average month, they would be immediately fired (note - the company controls how much you work......they can make it impossible to work over 70, and therefore, fire you. Sounds more like US wanted the bankruptcy so they could blame labor for management's inability to do their own jobs)

Read it here.

What they are basically asking is that people with 20 years get paid less than someone new at a LCC. Wow! Imagine if you were asked to get paid (with no snap back when times got better) as much as you did 20 years ago? Would you do it?

tgresham

Here , here! I am self employed and am sick of the attitude I see by employees who think they are "owed" something above and beyond what they can generate in revenue. Go start your own airline/company with the money in your piggy banks if you think you can do so much better. They never seem to see the big picture.

Fly

FYI - Southwest flight attendants are one of the highest (possibly THE highest) paid in the industry.



Basically, the industry has been "whored" down to the cheapest possible and the flying public still wants more. Flying in a plane IS going to be reduced to the level of driving in a NYC taxi. At least my cleaning girl (who doesn't speak a word of English) will soon have another career opportunity.

Fly

So, are you saying that people who have worked at a company for 25 years, and are finally making a decent living should get paid $9/hr? $72 a day! Would you? JetBlue is 5 years old, they are ALL on the low end of the payscale. Are you advising them to expect to work for the same wage their entire lives just so you can have a cheap ticket? Have you ever received a raise? Think about it for just a few. The airline is supposed to be a professional, safety related job (huge safety considering what happened 3 years ago), it's not supposed to be an after-school job at the mall. Whatever happened to people being allowed to make a decent wage for a hard days work? Looks like the end of the middle class in America.....hope you all end up in the right class.

phillyd2

???

Depending on how many days you calculate in a month (20 or 30) - we are talking from 2.6 to 4 hours a day. That can't be right, can it?

I have read the attached and much of it is inside baseball stuff but from what I gather it is not how much US pays per hour but what is done in that hour that is in question.

Yes, LCC pay is roughly the same per hour but their productivity during that hour is much more, hence the LLC is getting more bang for their buck.

Fly

I'll explain how flight crews are paid. Flight crews only get paid if the airplane is moving. All the stuff on the ground...NADA. So, all the time between flights you don't get paid. The average day of work is about 10 - 12 hours but only getting paid 5 hours a day. An average month of flying of 90 hours is about 5 days working a week. If someone ends up with only 4 days on (because that's all they can hold or all the company gave them), they could be fired! That is why international and long haul flying goes senior, you can get your hours without all the unpaid sits. Think about that next time there is an extended delay and the flight attendants are serving you on the ground. It's possible to fly about 120 hours (so I've heard) but you probably only would get 2 - 4 days off for the month at that rate.

phillyd2

Decent Living. Now, this is the big question. All will hate me for this but some jobs can not pay high wages. I hear alot of single mothers working part time at say Wal-Mart or McD complaining that they can not raise a family of four on the pay. I am old enough to remember that F/A was a job that single women took for a few years and moved on. In fact back in the days of Eastern if one stayed more than 5 years they were "talked about" but I digress. I too worked fast food, waitering, bartending, etc. for a short time and yes, if I would have stayed for 25 years then you are right - I would not make enough to live on but the point of these types of jobs is not to stay for 25 years. I of course note a huge difference between a F/A and pilots / mechanics because in my way of thinking these are skilled positions.

phillyd2

OK - you know more about this then do I so thanks for the info. I am assuming that all airlines pay in the same manner. ? If so, then something is still not working at US which leads me back to work rules and those at the LCC are simply more productive. I do not know that this is true but it seems to be the main point coming from US management and all things being equal - make sense to me.

In any event, we all on this board want US to live forever and its employees earning as much as possible but something just simple does not add up.

I have negotiated with a few unions in my life - most with Untied Steelworkers (not a fun bunch) but at least when they rejected an offer, they offered another that also made sense. An agreement was always some of managements plus some of unions suggestions as long as the final dollar amount was met. From US unions I seem to hear only "give us more money". Was there a counteroffer offered by the unions that reached the needed $ 800B cuts?

Beckles

RSA will only lose their equity investment if the company's stock is ccancelled and the equity given to debtors. That is not guaranteed to happen.

RSA provided $75 million of the $1 billion loan that was 90% guaranteed by the ATSB (RSA was the primary non-guaranteed lender, Bank of America provided the other $25 million of non-guaranteed money), if the stock is cancelled and used to pay debtors, guess what, they still end up with a chunk of US.

Fact of the matter is that this second bankruptcy isn't about debt, it's about costs, so I'm not sure why everyone is so sure the stock will be cancelled and the equity reallocated to the debtors (the market doesn't seem so sure of that).

LH738

These chapter 11 stories come and go. The US airlines throw out employees, cut wages, and implement other cost cutting measures. The business plan remains the same. I fear that it will be the same again. The big 6 (AA, CO, DL, NW, UA, US) have to learn that they won't be able to compete against Southwest, JetBlue, and AirTran on a cost basis (the pensions alone are very high for the big 6 - and so many airline staff members are "approaching" their retirement soon).

6 big airlines seam to be quite a lot compared to the prevailing opinion that in Europe only 3 big airlines will remain and others will have to find their niches or will die. It's sad to see airlines disappear (Braniff, PanAm, Swissair, ...): sometimes it seams to be necessary to reduce unnecessary capacity so long business plans not really change. The market has already decided against some of the airlines - unfortunately governments don't accept the market and come with tracheal respiration (see also Alitalia which had only one year with a profit within the last ~13 years). And this is then called liberal market.

Tino

That is precisely why I believe that the company will be liquidated. No one is going to step up and give them a third chance, and if they did, it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy: the cost of new capital will be so high that if employees worked for free, the airline still couldn't compete.

electra

When it gets to the stage that average middle-class careers can no longer be expected to make employees a decent living we are all up the creek.

Presumably you Corporate Titans all need people to buy your products / use your services---so you should be s****** yourself too. As more and more jobs become 'survival only' who the hell is going to keep the economy running?????

It always makes me laugh (albeit somewhat grimly) when these threads degenerate into the 'class warfare' speil. When jobs that used to support families, buy homes, buy new cars, pay for education etc, can no longer do that, and there are no jobs which can, then we are all in a bunch of trouble, from peons to Captains of Industry on up.