Latest US Airways Negotiation/ Bankruptcy News - HERE
Sep 8, 2004, 12:24 am
#16
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 231
While the other option is, as many posters have stated, unemployment, I can see why the pilots are taking a stand.
Giving concessions in the past has not secured the future of the airline and concessions here will probably do no more. They've given back wages and have a bleak outlook regarding the pension they've paid into for many years. The airline's proposals revolve around pilots taking paycuts and then working more hours to make up the difference. And as the airline continues to struggle, in a few months they'll ask for more concessions, and so on.
Asked to choose between unemployment and working more hours for less and less pay (not to mention a gutted pension), I'd take unemployment and move on with my life. US Air has little reasonable hope of lasting even if every employee and union gives in to every demand the airline makes. People who are critical of the pilots are making the assumption that these concessions will make or break US Air's long term future. I don't think that is an argument that can be empirically defended very well.
Taking concessions here gives this airline another 3-6 months, tops. What's the point?
I'm not a US Air basher. But the balance sheet on this company is appalling. Unfortunately, regardless of how much or little I enjoy their service, I just don't think it's feasible for them to meet their obligations on 9/15 and 9/30.
Giving concessions in the past has not secured the future of the airline and concessions here will probably do no more. They've given back wages and have a bleak outlook regarding the pension they've paid into for many years. The airline's proposals revolve around pilots taking paycuts and then working more hours to make up the difference. And as the airline continues to struggle, in a few months they'll ask for more concessions, and so on.
Asked to choose between unemployment and working more hours for less and less pay (not to mention a gutted pension), I'd take unemployment and move on with my life. US Air has little reasonable hope of lasting even if every employee and union gives in to every demand the airline makes. People who are critical of the pilots are making the assumption that these concessions will make or break US Air's long term future. I don't think that is an argument that can be empirically defended very well.
Taking concessions here gives this airline another 3-6 months, tops. What's the point?
I'm not a US Air basher. But the balance sheet on this company is appalling. Unfortunately, regardless of how much or little I enjoy their service, I just don't think it's feasible for them to meet their obligations on 9/15 and 9/30.
Sep 8, 2004, 6:07 am
#17
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: DC; US Gold
Posts: 3,139
This morning's Wash Post
Bankruptcy Firm Hired By Airline
US Airways Retains Its Previous Adviser
By Keith L. Alexander
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 8, 2004; Page E01
With its labor negotiations faltering, US Airways Group Inc. has begun consultations with bankruptcy advisers in anticipation of a filing, a source familiar with the talks said yesterday.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Sep7.html
US Airways Retains Its Previous Adviser
By Keith L. Alexander
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 8, 2004; Page E01
With its labor negotiations faltering, US Airways Group Inc. has begun consultations with bankruptcy advisers in anticipation of a filing, a source familiar with the talks said yesterday.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Sep7.html
Sep 8, 2004, 8:13 am
#18
Join Date: Jan 2003
Programs: American Airlines Platinum, National Executive
Posts: 3,790
US Airways Appeals Directly to Pilots
From today's Charlotte Business Journal online.
LATEST NEWS
10:06 AM EDT Wednesday
US Airways appeals directly to pilots
US Airways Group Inc. is making a direct appeal to its 3,000 pilots after their union's leaders rejected a contract proposal Monday.
The airline is seeking $295 million in annual concessions from the pilots. US Airways says the concessions are crucial for it to avoid a return to bankruptcy court.
The Air Line Pilots Association's executive committee rejected a motion to send the carrier's proposal on wages and work rules to its membership for a vote.
On Tuesday, US Airways Chief Executive Bruce Lakefield addressed a message to the pilots, emphasizing the urgency of reaching an agreement.
"Ultimately, I hope we can succeed and you will be allowed a voice in the decision," his message said, according to Reuters. "I am just baffled as to why a few of your representatives don't trust you to make the proper decision regarding our proposal.
"We do not take lightly the sacrifices you have already made or the fact that all of us must make more. But we also all know the price is even higher if we simply do nothing."
The carrier faces mid-September deadlines for making nearly $1 billion in payments to cover pension obligations and an installment on a federal loan.
According to The Washington Post, the airline has retained Seabury Group, the restructuring firm it used during its first bankruptcy. US Airways emerged from that bankruptcy in March 2003. The airline has also begun talks with the law firm Arnold & Porter, which will represent it in the event of a Chapter 11 filing.
No new talks with the pilots' union had been scheduled by late Tuesday, Reuters adds.
LATEST NEWS
10:06 AM EDT Wednesday
US Airways appeals directly to pilots
US Airways Group Inc. is making a direct appeal to its 3,000 pilots after their union's leaders rejected a contract proposal Monday.
The airline is seeking $295 million in annual concessions from the pilots. US Airways says the concessions are crucial for it to avoid a return to bankruptcy court.
The Air Line Pilots Association's executive committee rejected a motion to send the carrier's proposal on wages and work rules to its membership for a vote.
On Tuesday, US Airways Chief Executive Bruce Lakefield addressed a message to the pilots, emphasizing the urgency of reaching an agreement.
"Ultimately, I hope we can succeed and you will be allowed a voice in the decision," his message said, according to Reuters. "I am just baffled as to why a few of your representatives don't trust you to make the proper decision regarding our proposal.
"We do not take lightly the sacrifices you have already made or the fact that all of us must make more. But we also all know the price is even higher if we simply do nothing."
The carrier faces mid-September deadlines for making nearly $1 billion in payments to cover pension obligations and an installment on a federal loan.
According to The Washington Post, the airline has retained Seabury Group, the restructuring firm it used during its first bankruptcy. US Airways emerged from that bankruptcy in March 2003. The airline has also begun talks with the law firm Arnold & Porter, which will represent it in the event of a Chapter 11 filing.
No new talks with the pilots' union had been scheduled by late Tuesday, Reuters adds.
Sep 8, 2004, 8:33 am
#19
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Southwest US
Programs: AA (US) gold, HH gold, Bonvoy gold
Posts: 332
"Asked to choose between unemployment and working more hours for less and less pay (not to mention a gutted pension), I'd take unemployment and move on with my life. US Air has little reasonable hope of lasting even if every employee and union gives in to every demand the airline makes. People who are critical of the pilots are making the assumption that these concessions will make or break US Air's long term future. I don't think that is an argument that can be empirically defended very well."
.[/QUOTE]
I don't get it - you could also quit and let the people who want to work for less stay on the job. Just leave and find another job - in fact, you could use this job as a bridge to finding other work as oppossed to being unemployed or at a much lower paid position.
I find the attitude of those who want to see U go down when their jobs disappear in a bankruptcy selfish and mean. If they are planning on being unemployed anyway - why hurt others unless it is just for spite. Who would want to hire someone like that - not me.
.[/QUOTE]
I don't get it - you could also quit and let the people who want to work for less stay on the job. Just leave and find another job - in fact, you could use this job as a bridge to finding other work as oppossed to being unemployed or at a much lower paid position.
I find the attitude of those who want to see U go down when their jobs disappear in a bankruptcy selfish and mean. If they are planning on being unemployed anyway - why hurt others unless it is just for spite. Who would want to hire someone like that - not me.
Sep 8, 2004, 10:42 am
#20
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boston
Programs: AA LT Plat 2.6M, HH DIA
Posts: 149
US Air a step closer to Ch. 11
The Deal.com
Wed Sep 8, 6:00 AM ET
by Lou Whiteman
US Airways Group Inc.'s dimming hope of securing new labor concessions and avoiding a second bankruptcy took another blow late Monday, Sept. 6, when the airline's pilot union refused to send a company proposal to its membership for a vote.
The Arlington, Va.-based airline has been in discussions with the union for nearly two weeks trying to win givebacks that would save the company $295 million annually. But a squabble from within the union's master executive council prevented the proposal from being distributed to pilots for consideration as planned.
Jack Stephan, chairman of the executive council, told membership in a recorded message late Monday that three union leaders representing pilots in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia voted down a resolution to send US Air's proposal to pilots. It is uncertain whether the proposal will be reconsidered.
Shares of US Airways fell about 13% to $2.05 Tuesday afternoon, losing much of what they gained last week on news that a deal might be close.
A spokesman for the company said management was "profoundly disappointed" by the union's action. He said the company hopes the sides can resume talks, but no further discussions are scheduled.
Without concessions from pilots and other workers, a court-assisted reorganization of US Air appears unavoidable. Industry sources said the airline is working with attorneys from Washington-based law firm Arnold & Porter LLP, as well as longtime adviser Seabury Group LLC, to help it consider its options.
US Airways is racing against the clock to secure $1.5 billion in new cuts, including about $800 million from labor, it says it needs to avoid having to declare bankruptcy for the second time in the past two years. The airline faces some key deadlines in the coming weeks that could push it closer to the brink of insolvency.
US Airways has a $110 million pension payment due Sept. 15. On Sept. 30, it faces reviews on loan and lease covenants with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board and its financiers of regional jets, as well as a review of a collateral agreement with American Express Co.
Even if it does secure a deal with its pilots, the carrier still faces significant challenges. US Airways has held discussions with flight attendants on concessions, but it awaits a counterproposal from that union. The company's mechanics have so far refused to reopen contract talks.
Those hurdles make it unlikely that the airline will have ratified deals in place with all of its workers by the end of September. One airline consultant, however, said US Air could avoid a Chapter 11 filing if it can show its creditors that it has made substantial progress with its unions by the end of the month.
"No one wants to see them in bankruptcy again," the consultant said. "They just have to give everyone a reason to believe."
The Deal.com
Wed Sep 8, 6:00 AM ET
by Lou Whiteman
US Airways Group Inc.'s dimming hope of securing new labor concessions and avoiding a second bankruptcy took another blow late Monday, Sept. 6, when the airline's pilot union refused to send a company proposal to its membership for a vote.
The Arlington, Va.-based airline has been in discussions with the union for nearly two weeks trying to win givebacks that would save the company $295 million annually. But a squabble from within the union's master executive council prevented the proposal from being distributed to pilots for consideration as planned.
Jack Stephan, chairman of the executive council, told membership in a recorded message late Monday that three union leaders representing pilots in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia voted down a resolution to send US Air's proposal to pilots. It is uncertain whether the proposal will be reconsidered.
Shares of US Airways fell about 13% to $2.05 Tuesday afternoon, losing much of what they gained last week on news that a deal might be close.
A spokesman for the company said management was "profoundly disappointed" by the union's action. He said the company hopes the sides can resume talks, but no further discussions are scheduled.
Without concessions from pilots and other workers, a court-assisted reorganization of US Air appears unavoidable. Industry sources said the airline is working with attorneys from Washington-based law firm Arnold & Porter LLP, as well as longtime adviser Seabury Group LLC, to help it consider its options.
US Airways is racing against the clock to secure $1.5 billion in new cuts, including about $800 million from labor, it says it needs to avoid having to declare bankruptcy for the second time in the past two years. The airline faces some key deadlines in the coming weeks that could push it closer to the brink of insolvency.
US Airways has a $110 million pension payment due Sept. 15. On Sept. 30, it faces reviews on loan and lease covenants with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board and its financiers of regional jets, as well as a review of a collateral agreement with American Express Co.
Even if it does secure a deal with its pilots, the carrier still faces significant challenges. US Airways has held discussions with flight attendants on concessions, but it awaits a counterproposal from that union. The company's mechanics have so far refused to reopen contract talks.
Those hurdles make it unlikely that the airline will have ratified deals in place with all of its workers by the end of September. One airline consultant, however, said US Air could avoid a Chapter 11 filing if it can show its creditors that it has made substantial progress with its unions by the end of the month.
"No one wants to see them in bankruptcy again," the consultant said. "They just have to give everyone a reason to believe."
Sep 8, 2004, 12:46 pm
#21
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Programs: Former Dividend Miles Chairman's, Marriott Rewards
Posts: 1,122
The Pittsburgh newspaper reports that US is just about insolvent and that a bankruptcy petition could be filed as early as this weekend (9-11-04).
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04252/375273.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04252/375273.stm
Sep 8, 2004, 1:14 pm
#22
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: YYJ
Posts: 4,137
Originally Posted by TPA us ff
The Pittsburgh newspaper reports that US is just about insolvent and that a bankruptcy petition could be filed as early as this weekend (9-11-04).
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04252/375273.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04252/375273.stm
Sep 8, 2004, 1:28 pm
#23
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Diamond
Posts: 92
For good or for bad, I've heard the exact same sentiment from several US FAs as what ginandtacos.com is talking about. People really feel that the airline is never going to turn it around and perhaps it is time for it to go.
From my point of view, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I haven't been walking in their shoes... and from my little sampling of opinion, it seems to be a common opinion. People are just emotionally worn out and are tired of being on the edge of oblivion.
Although on another note, one FA strongly believed that management was stealing the money. She sees most of her flights sold out and can't believe that the airline can be in bad shape unless the execs are stealing. I explained how cheap airfares are these days - she was very surprised. I told her I had paid $200 for my rt BWI-SFO with 7 day advance and she was shocked. She said, "I haven't paid for a ticket in 15 years - I guess I don't pay too close attention to what rev pax are paying."
I hope I was able to change her opinion about theft a little.
From my point of view, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I haven't been walking in their shoes... and from my little sampling of opinion, it seems to be a common opinion. People are just emotionally worn out and are tired of being on the edge of oblivion.
Although on another note, one FA strongly believed that management was stealing the money. She sees most of her flights sold out and can't believe that the airline can be in bad shape unless the execs are stealing. I explained how cheap airfares are these days - she was very surprised. I told her I had paid $200 for my rt BWI-SFO with 7 day advance and she was shocked. She said, "I haven't paid for a ticket in 15 years - I guess I don't pay too close attention to what rev pax are paying."
I hope I was able to change her opinion about theft a little.
Sep 8, 2004, 1:32 pm
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NC
Programs: AAConciergeKey/1MM, DL DM/2 MM, UA Gold,Hilton Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 11,967
Will we have time to burn our miles if the airline decides to liquidate? or if they make such an announcement, that will be the cutoff for using miles (ie on US or other Star carriers)? Any thoughts?
Sep 8, 2004, 2:17 pm
#26
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 231
It is possible, although not certain, that our Dividend Miles might still be redeemable on *A if US ceases operations. I agree wholeheartedly with Tino: if they seek bankruptcy again, the end will be immediate. There are no more loans, aid, or stays of execution for US or any other airline at this point.
To follow up on the union issue, I think the attitude that the employees should be taking concessions fits in with our society-at-large's attitude about labor. "You should be thankful that we bother to employ you, and if we ask you to take a paycut you should smile and say 'Thank you'."
It is not the pilots', attendants', mechanics', and other employees' fault that US Air is going bankrupt, and it is not their "moral obligation" to take paycuts to save the airline.
Typical. The management screws up and expects the employees to make concessions to accomodate their mismanagement. Plenty of other airlines are recovered (or recovering) from the 9-11 tragedy. It is not the fault of the employees that US has not.
To follow up on the union issue, I think the attitude that the employees should be taking concessions fits in with our society-at-large's attitude about labor. "You should be thankful that we bother to employ you, and if we ask you to take a paycut you should smile and say 'Thank you'."
It is not the pilots', attendants', mechanics', and other employees' fault that US Air is going bankrupt, and it is not their "moral obligation" to take paycuts to save the airline.
Typical. The management screws up and expects the employees to make concessions to accomodate their mismanagement. Plenty of other airlines are recovered (or recovering) from the 9-11 tragedy. It is not the fault of the employees that US has not.
Sep 8, 2004, 2:26 pm
#27
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
Programs: AA-EXP 3MM, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 582
The news just keeps rolling in...
Sep 8, 2004, 2:37 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Southwest US
Programs: AA (US) gold, HH gold, Bonvoy gold
Posts: 332
I am sorry, but Ginandtacos has it wrong. No one is blaming labor, but the reality of buisness is that the other carriers have lower cost in pensions, salary, and work rules. It is good, NOT BAD management that recognises what the competition is doing and tries to compete on a level playing field. Where did you go to buisness school? My reading is that none of the unions want to match the LCC contracts verbatim and have work rules like the LCCs. I understand that I would be angry, sad, pissed off, etc. if this were done to me by management once my lifestyle and plans were set- but it seems a lot of the bad decisions management made in the past was the labor deals they are in now with the work rules as they stand (this from a purely clinical point of view). I work in a buisness where all the professionals get the same pay for the same work whether they are man, woman, black, white, older or younger, or there for 5 years or 20 years - only the pension gets bigger with time. You need to take more responsibility to get more pay and yes, the longer you are on the job the opportunities for increased reponsibility present themselves to those who are able and willing. I don't know what I would do if I were in labors shoes as I cannot fathom how upset they are. I think would look at the other carriers and see what they are doing and put my bottom line at SWA or Jetblue contracts (exactly the same) - then look elsewhere for work if it didn't appeal to me using my current job as a bridge to the next job.
But give a purly SWA or Jetblue contract with exact same work rules straight up to U employess and it won't be accepted - and there lies the rub.
But give a purly SWA or Jetblue contract with exact same work rules straight up to U employess and it won't be accepted - and there lies the rub.
Sep 8, 2004, 2:46 pm
#29
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Near the end of the line
Posts: 2,419
Originally Posted by dcjono
People really feel that the airline is never going to turn it around and perhaps it is time for it to go...People are just emotionally worn out and are tired of being on the edge of oblivion.
Sep 8, 2004, 2:53 pm
#30
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Programs: US1
Posts: 1,928
Originally Posted by steves
I am sorry, but Ginandtacos has it wrong. No one is blaming labor, but the reality of buisness is that the other carriers have lower cost in pensions, salary, and work rules. It is good, NOT BAD management that recognises what the competition is doing and tries to compete on a level playing field. Where did you go to buisness school? My reading is that none of the unions want to match the LCC contracts verbatim and have work rules like the LCCs. I understand that I would be angry, sad, pissed off, etc. if this were done to me by management once my lifestyle and plans were set- but it seems a lot of the bad decisions management made in the past was the labor deals they are in now with the work rules as they stand (this from a purely clinical point of view). I work in a buisness where all the professionals get the same pay for the same work whether they are man, woman, black, white, older or younger, or there for 5 years or 20 years - only the pension gets bigger with time. You need to take more responsibility to get more pay and yes, the longer you are on the job the opportunities for increased reponsibility present themselves to those who are able and willing. I don't know what I would do if I were in labors shoes as I cannot fathom how upset they are. I think would look at the other carriers and see what they are doing and put my bottom line at SWA or Jetblue contracts (exactly the same) - then look elsewhere for work if it didn't appeal to me using my current job as a bridge to the next job.
But give a purly SWA or Jetblue contract with exact same work rules straight up to U employess and it won't be accepted - and there lies the rub.
But give a purly SWA or Jetblue contract with exact same work rules straight up to U employess and it won't be accepted - and there lies the rub.
And what is going to happen is many of the employees who are so against the work rules of SWA and Jet Blue are going to end up working for them. AA, NW, DL and CO won't hire these guys since they have many of their own in furlough right now. They are going to hire their own back first before any of the U employees.
So in the end they are going to end up taking that pay cut anyhow with the work rules that SWA and Jetblue has for them. And on top of that. They will be JUNIOR and be at the bottom of the stack. Man your average age of 52 and being junior. That is going to suck big time.
T