N674UW

So wait...I was quoted a few months ago in a major North American newspaper saying some negative things on one aspect of US's service...is this now like a black mark on my permanent record with US??

N674UW

PineyBob

I gotta be honest Deelmaker, they have been wonderful to me. Absolutely wonderful! And I'm saying this after a 3 hour weather delay sitting on the tarmac in ROC last night. We were informed every step of the way. they even taxied back to the gate snd reaccomodated some folks on the early morning flight that had plenty of seats.

The Ticket counter guy told me of all of the delays and said he had figured out a way to get me home quicker and issued my boarding pass and explained the changes and why.

The front line is really the best in the industry and I will not be quiet when a guy like Gitomer feels he has to demonstrate his alleged superiority and berate those who seek to serve him.

Do I have issues with Management? YES and I think we are making inroads and seeing positive things happen again.

deelmakur

My belief is that if they conclude you have access to major national media, they try to handle you, even if they find it distasteful. In Gitomer's case, my guess is they tried unsuccessfully, concluded he was pretty local, and eventually took a shot. The resultant publicity in places like FT could cause national media to pick it up, especially if things are slow. Their vaunted database doesn't know things like, say a guy like me, a frequent source on another industry, for people like the WSJ,Forbes, BW, and the occasional blip on CNBC. With those kinds of relationships, you have credible access to writers in other areas. As such, if one were so inclined, they could easily give them a hotfoot,and they'd never know it. I don'thappen to beleive in that, but while they are busy beating up the Charlotte gadfly, they ought to realize they don't know everything.

TomBascom

Deelmakur has very legitimate concerns. Especially regarding the accuracy of the notes that they keep about us.

I'd expect that in a "no favors" environment where management is perceived to be looking for excuses to discipline people that the accuracy of that information is extraordinarily unreliable. It would be fascinating to pull the tapes on random conversations and compare them to the notes (I've been through that in other industries and the results are startling).

We have no way to know what they've got in their files and yet it can be very damaging to us -- and it may be completely false or at least very badly skewed.

Presumably in this case they did some serious first person research about allegations like "reduced to tears". But even that isn't iron-clad -- I don't find it terribly hard to believe that this guy's high profile has led to some exaggerated stories of personal encounters told, and retold until they become "legendary".

Maybe it's all true and he really is all they say. I don't know. I wasn't there.

I do know that customers do lose control at times. And I know that those interactions can get out of hand and turn into abuse -- verbal and otherwise. That shouldn't be tolerated and a pattern of such interactions shouldn't be tolerated either.

OTOH the airline should realize (and I think that they do) that the travel experience is extremely stressful and that people will become upset at times. Its not pleasant, its not nice, its nothing you'd want your mother to see you doing but being upset over a bad experience isn't a reason to ban anyone -- even if that person has a long run of unhappy experiences or is in a perpetual bad mood.

But if something actionable did happen (complaining about Steve Wolf's columns or paint colors certainly doesn't qualify -- and bringing it up makes US look like they're engaged in petty character assassination) then action should have been taken on the spot (that would require empowered employees...) not on the letters page of a newspaper. Note: banning him doesn't belong in a letter to the editor. Rebutting his column is another matter and a factual rebuttal is procedurally ok with me although I share Deelmakur's concerns about the apparent source of much of the information and I think the content was largely, but not entirely, petty.

Apparently, the banning action was taken seperately from the letter to the editor and perhaps in response to further provocation -- for all we know he had a conversation with his personal VP that went something like -- "you might as well ban me!"; "ok"...

As for the FF miles -- they aren't much good to him if he's been banned from the airline (code shares would still count since US would have to deal with him.) And perhaps there's a bit more to that story too.

PineyBob

Privacy Issues and the way Gate Agents post in your record will be with us long after we say Jeffrey who?

Knowing that is all the more reason NOT to be a Jeffrey. That's why if I do have an issue I don't discuss it there, I call the CP desk or Consumer Affairs, who IMO are more likely to respond favorably and less likely to make untrue or unfounded comments. Another thing is to ask Consumer Affairs if any negative stuff is in your file and why.

I keep wondering "How bad was he really". I have seen and heard plenty about him, and we all have had our share of difficult customers over the years.

So I keep pondering what would make US Airways even consider what amounts to a public flogging of a high profile customer. The risk of this whole incident blowing up in their face is not small. It is also a distraction from the much larger issues that could sink the airline. When I start to examine all of the potential downsides to this, I can only conclude that this guy had to have been a real PITA, otherwise why risk it.

In Sales Training some refer to what I am saying as the W.I.I.F.M test. or What's In It For Me! When you look at it from a WIIFM perspective this guy had to have been a real piece of work for a banning and confiscation of miles to pass US Airways WIIFM test.

jetsetter

Randeman,
My sentiment may come from the old addage that half the fun is getting there. I have never really cared that much, say, about on time numbers, or many of the stats that the airlines like to throw out for public consumption. The experience is often as important as getting there. E.g. being offered a nice meal, good drink service, an overall pleasant experience, etc. However, perhaps most people don't think this way. I was in an airline focus group once, and most of the people said there was nothing an airline could do to keep them loyal if competetors schedules were better. The focus group had to do with the Delta vs the US Air Shuttle. These people essentially said that in order to avoid sitting in the airport for an extra 30 minutes they would take the competetors shuttle, and that no amount of bonus miles or other perks would keep them loyal to one shuttle product. Perhaps I long for the glory days of aviation. Other than improvements like web check in, I think we are largely taking steps backwards rather than forward in terms of overall service. The Concorde retirement is another example. I too fly mostly on discounted fares, and long for the good days. Again, in conclusion, I'm interested in more than just basic trasnportation and conveyance from point A to B.

nawlinsdoc

The rules do state VERY CLEARLY:

"US Airways may disqualify any person from participation in the Dividend Miles program if, in the sole judgment of US Airways, that person has violated any program rule(s) and/or procedure(s), including but not limited to: the sale or barter of tickets or awards; violation of the tariffs of US Airways or participating alliance airline partner; any unruly or harrassing behavior to any US Airways employee, agent, or customer; failure to follow any US Airways employee or agent instructions; and/or violation of government security and/or other government regulations . Disqualification may result, in US Airways' sole discretion, in termination of membership in the Dividend Miles program, loss of all or some accumulated miles, cancellation of unused awards, denial of certain Dividend Miles privileges, and could result in civil and/or criminal prosecution."

Honestly, it was this rule that scared me so much last year in the GOM fiasco. They could have swiped our miles. But they didn't.

Randeman

jetsetter...

I respect your reasoning, I simply cannot "relate" to it. Obviously, the criteria that you use to select your airline is what works for you. It is truly unfortunate that US Airways has chosen to eliminate glassware, linen, hot meals, etc. in First Class as a cost savings means. One might argue that if other airlines can continue to provide the same quality (for lack of a better word), why can't US Airways? That's a question that I can't answer. I can tell you that in my honest opinion, and I have sources of reliable information to support this opinion, US Airways has made these and similar cuts because it was hurt worse by the recession and September 11 than were most other airlines.

Look at the US route structure...US, like most carriers, depends heavily on business customers. Certainly more so than leisure customers. The structure is based on primary east coast service, to and from very large metropolitan airports. 80% (and that is an estimate) of US Airways service is east of the Mississippi River. Although I haven't looked at the number of flights lately, until recently US Airways had more flights between LaGuardia, Logan, National, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Charlotte than any other airline. If you aren't familiar with Charlotte as a city, it is the second largest banking center behind New York. These airports serve THE business and government centers for the entire country. There really isn't near the amount of leisure customers traveling between these cities as there are business customers. Even before the recent recession and September 11, US was starting to reduce service to leisure markets, especially Florida. Everybody and their dog services Florida...it isn't really a moneymaker for US. In the past, and even now, US Airways makes their money from people that pay for that full fare ticket. It is a fact that there aren't as many people buying those $800.00 tickets, PHL-MCO, as there are paying $200.00. That isn't to say that flights made no money whatever, but the way US Airways was structured, all those $200.00 passengers did not bring in the lucrative business traveler who paid the $800.00 fares CLT-BOS. Another point, after September 11, Washington's National Airport was closed longer than any other airport in the country. US moved some service to Dulles, but Dulles didn't have the gate space that US needed to just up and move everything. So, most flights that used Dulles were shuttles. This really, REALLY hurt the US bottom line...it was extremely difficult for them to recover from that one; they really still haven't completely. Where else has US suffered financially? Well, labor costs for years were higher than any other airline, and I think they still may be. Also, fuel prices under the Wolf administration were never hedged, so US always paid more for fuel. When Wolf tried to broker a merger with United he flat out told everyone, "Look, there is no plan B. If the government says 'no' we have nothing else in place to keep ourselves viable in five-ten years." What did the government say? "No." I wonder if Wolf felt a personal sense of failure when he went out the door after that one. What a way to start retirement. What else do we have? Well, they have a pretty extensive US Express network...but it certainly isn't anywhere near on par with Delta Connection, American Eagle, Continental Express, or NWA Airlink. How come? Propjets. No one likes them. Period. The average flyer perceives propeller driven aircraft as being less safe than a fanjet. There's no proof of that, the FAA says, but try convincing the public of that. So, US needs to get a fleet of RJs...a big one. Many of my fellow FTers hate the RJs, "junglejets" they call them, for many reasons. But hate them or not, they are more efficient and cost effective than a Dash-8 or a Beechcraft. And regardless of who hates them, the airlines love what they do to their bottom lines, which means the stockholders will love them, and in the airline business, like other businesses, the bottom line and the stockholders are satisfied first. Plus the added bonus of many of the one's going into the US fleet are going to have a First Class section. I believe only NWA Airlink has some of those. Pleases the elites. Let's not forget to mention Airbus. I would imagine that Siegal never would have entered into that contract in hindsight, but they're going through with it, if to a lesser degree. They too are cost efficient, and their commonality clicks with the company. Flight attendants over all don't like them, but the customers sure do. The US fleet is aging, especially the 767s and many of the 73s. European flights make the company money, and when and if they ever get the freight situation worked out, those routes will really be lucrative again. The big moneymaker is the Caribbean and that's where the Airbuses go. There and the west coast, which isn't exactly a big money maker, but not a loser either.

So, my point is these are some of the reasons that US has chosen to cut costs "across the board"...and that includes cabin services. Judging from the number of Fters who are jumping ship from Continental and Delta as a result of the changes in their programs, and running like mad to the other airlines, including US Airways, I just don't see management worrying much about too many people that quit flying them as a result of a plastic cup in First Class.


[This message has been edited by Randeman (edited 11-08-2003).]

deelmakur

Duplicate of a post on "Buzz"

First the airlines set hurdles to get to various FF progam levels. They pump the magazine, newspaper and electronic media full of promotional ads intended to drive regular customers to fly enough to get these valuable perks like free F class seats. Then they complain people are hitting the CP mark on very lttle spending, so they get mad at the customer for their own stupidity in letting it happen. Incensed about being "gamed", they lower the quality of the service, in a show of corporate contempt for what's in those seats. The customer, thinking the whole thing is an entitlement, starts to bellyache about ridiculous things like plastic cups in a premium compartment. At that point, you can't complain without appearing petty. Then some guy, who has access to the local press with a column takes them to task. They try to molify him, but it just pumps his self importance, and he keeps it up, so while Rome (or in this case, Philly) burns, and the company melts down, they're busy publicly floggging this guy, in what can only look like an attempt to muzzle any other customer who might air a grievance in open forum. Wasn't it the Russians, in the old days, who would put dissidents in the nuthouse when they openly disagreed with the system? The whole thing is "Alice in Wonderland" stuff. As you go through the looking glass, you realize that the only reason the place still runs is because the government has bailed it, and the Courts have protected it. What a state of affairs for my favorite airline, and some of the nicest people in the business.

gardener

Amen to that. I don't like the plastic either but when you look how DL and CO have raped their FFers (and for that matter HH over on the hotel front) I am glad that I am loyal to US and Marriott who have not slashed and burned their frequency plans.

alwayscommuting

deelmakur said "but the point is that if they track him, they track anybody with multiple contacts. That's a recipe for mischief at their end."

Do you not think that ANY company for that matter who has a frequent shopper program does not track their customers? It's no different when you call a creditor or utility they notate why you called so how is US doing anything wrong?

Randeman

There's a fine line between suspicion and paranoia.

[This message has been edited by Randeman (edited 11-08-2003).]

PineyBob

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you

deelmakur

Tracking someone at Costco, or whatever, simply leads to being marketed by people who make things you appear to like. Being tracked by a service organization, which has the ability to deny you travel comforts which are in high demand, but have limited availability, is quite different. This whole thread started as a result of the belief that Consumer Affairs at US doesn't really do a lot, and that there is some anecdotal evidence that if you contact them frequently, you risk being categorized as a "problem" customer. Who knows? As you revisit your experiences, ask yourself if this is an organization that responds to constructive criticism, or is it more interested in validating its decisions, the results of which are there for all to see. Our friend in Charlotte, while probably asking for it, got a snoot full. It sort of begs the question that if there's paranoia, is it just on the customer side? Many companies would have ignored him. I really can't recall the public banning of a passenger that wasn't involved in some sort of police or court action (assault, fraud, etc.). This guy simply exercised his First Amendment rights. I don't believe anybody has sued the publication itself for libel or slander. The way in which this guy's activity has been documented suggests the data mining going on over there is used a lot of ways.

[This message has been edited by deelmakur (edited 11-09-2003).]

PineyBob

I found out an interesting tidbit regarding Consumer Affairs and what is written in your account.

Those records are subject to subpeona and therefore need to be as accurate as possible. They NEED to be legally defensable. So in the case of Mr. Gitomer US had best have it's ducks in a row otherwise they get to write a huge check to him if he sues because they will lose.

Mr Gitomer as Deelmakur accurately points out is free to use his column as he sees fit under the 1st amendment. US has little recourse as his points can be taken in general airline and customer service terms in the articles I've read.