I'm in China - just flew into Shanghai on UA, and onward to Beijing on Shanghai Airlines.

The differences between domestic travel here and that in the U.S. are astounding. There are no fascist security guards here waiting to pounce on you, and rape your privacy with their gloved or ungloved hands. Well-trained guards keep security lines moving smoothly. Properly set-up ID check counters before security ensure that people traveling have appropriate ID.

On board the plane, a uniformed unarmed air marshall sat in the front row of economy class, and after take off took up position in the FA seat outside the cockpit. I do not know if undercover air marshalls were present, but there is supposed to be at least
one uniformed air marshall on each domestic Chinese flight.

There was no secondary screening. There is no need for secondary screening if you do the job right the first time round!

I felt both safe and unharrassed. We in the U.S. really have something to learn from China. It is American air travel that is totalitarian.

[This message has been edited by Buster CT1K (edited 03-21-2002).]

cblaisd, I would not feel bad about staring this thread. The comments and attacks have been spread through out nearly every security related thread. If we were to believe the average post, these people have an IQ of 50, hate their betters and enjoy messing with people. I have not caught on how with their IQ of 50 they know about people better than them and can come up with the plan to harrass them. If anything I am really coming to the conclusion that the problem is that many people are disdainful of their "lessers?". I am sure I will take alot of flak but probably no where near what the security people are having to put up with for enforcing stupid rules.

Buster CT1K, before you praise the Chinese too much, realize that they have had hijackings. They are currently experiencing a bombing campaign from both criminals, moslem seperatists, and disgruntled workers. The chinese policy and it is pretty effective, is that even a wiff of dissension results in being picked up and thrown into jail. They pick up these perceived threats by having an vast and effective system of intelligence informers from neighborhood, factory and other areas.

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Robert

These folks often act without using common sense. "I was only doing my job" is a load of crap. There are intelligent and there are incompetent ways of doing things and unfortunately most of the time, incompetence is the Norm. Time to scrap this stupid system and get something together that works without these intrusive searches. And fire all these screeners who act like smarmy gestapo weasels in the process.



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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin

Exactly. Well said.

cblaisd---Please don't be sorry, about starting this thread. It's been over 6 months since 9/11 and many pax's are beginning to feel that "we're in good hands now". Last night on three different major news programs it was reported that on 9/11/2001, 87% of the screeners at Dulles weren't American citizens. To this day the INS hasn't provided congress with the "FACTS" as to how many of them at Boston, Newark and Dulles were illegal aliens, and could have been co-conspirators. One commentator called these "new" screeners "IDIOTS" three different times. The reason he gave was because they were uneducated, almost untrainable, and lazy. The monthly turn over rate is nearly 95%. Just the "FACTS".----- 3/13/02 8:00 a.m.(LAX-LAS) primary screening between terminal #6 & #7. A Russian gentleman (approximately 55 years old), behind me in line, couldn't locate his green bag that he thought he placed on the x-ray machine. The response from these "professionals"? "You ain't leavin this area, man, walk over there, take your shoes off, now put out your arms. Yea, he says he put his bag on there, in his dreams! You hear me put out your arms. Check this dude out, he thinks he gave us his bag. HA! HA!" Next fact-----3/15/02 (LAX-LAS) secondary screening gate #70A---"First two in line go behind the screen. Place your bags on the table, and watch me. I said watch me. Now put out your arms. Do you mind if I touch you? Now take off your shoes." Asian gentleman (approximately 60 years old) approaches and is informed approximately 10 times---"Drink what's in your opened bottle. I ain't gonna ask you one more time, drink it". Still no response. Why? Because he couldn't speak a word of english. The solution to "getting thru to him" was to "scream". When I attempted to explain to him what was "going down", I was told, "I'm not talking to you, you can get on the plane now. "Facts"---Two times in one week, both at LAX. The "faint whiff of racism" card didn't need to be played, as my daughter-in-law will attest. I know what a street gang acts like and I know what these people acted like. Again, my "beef" isn't with these people, it's with the people hiring them. Trying to make the public believe that the "new government run" security system is better than before just isn't "FACTUAL". Let's all just "mosey on down" to the airport and not be concerned. I'm dropping out of FT, (this is my last post) because I seem to be causing people to misinterpret my opinions of the "FACTS". FT should be a "happy" place to be, and not interjected with thoughts of preventing potential terrorist activities. Due to my past job experiences , I can no longer tolerate security incompetence. Hiring these people is a great idea, because if they can't get a job anywhere else, and are drawing a welfare check, let's send them out to the airport to make sure that people don't get hijacked. I feel more relieved already. One thing that is a "FACT" however is that, the first two in line are getting the "Two Overs". Why? Don't ask, and don't try to figure it out, it's just a "FACT"! Remember, (cblaisd) "it's better to be safe than sorry"! Good luck!!!



[This message has been edited by TUFBEAR (edited 03-21-2002).]

From my experience, it seems that the security folks pick the random people with limited carry ons. This is in addition to the holders of one way tickets. If I can figure this out why can't a "bad guy"? (I don't consider myself to be one) The idea that it is random is a joke. I can speak about this from ORD, PVD, PHL, LAX, DIA, IAD and some other airports. If one was to being this to the attention to someone in authority at United, who would it be. I would not complain about flying in a "secure" environment but lets face the facts, it is not random and it's not really helping.

I am actually sorry to hear that Tufbear has decided to leave. I hope he reconsiders because I believe he has offered great comments before. Though I don't agree with many of his comments on this thread. I am actually unsure where to start, but many of his comments need answers.

First anyone who believes that you can harden a target from terrorist attack that is basic infrastructure is being naive. To harden something by definition reduces its usefulness. The best solution to the primary problem of hijackings has been to tell the pilots to not give up control of the aircraft. Second the passengers will not allow it as well. Much of the rest of the discussion about finding anything sharp in checked bags is fluff.

The answer to flyingG and some previous posts is also important and fits in with Tufbear's. The random second screenings are random only in as much as they need to be to prevent charges of racism. I am sure that no one will admit that but it is true. Just as most police forces are now going to have to pull over more non minorities on traffic stops to show that they are not using racial profiling. So I agree that it is not truly random, but randomness is only one part of the criteria. Next the reason why we have secondary screening in place is logical. Almost all airports check people at main entry points to insure maximum effeciency. MCI is an exception. It is nearly impossible to truely secure all things that enter the concourses from vendor supplies like books and bags to cases of food. So the only way to make the terrorist decide to not place someone in a job and have weapons smuggled in, is to make them think that they will still be searched again. Doing a check that includes people profiled and a few random ones is still more effective than eliminating the main check and doing just one check at the entry gate.

That leads into the answers to Tufbear. Many of the people at screening stations are not american citizens. Not new news. Tufbear is mistaken abount the INS being responsible to tell congress about them. First that kind of specific info is not something the INS would even try to track. That info has been common knowledge and I believe tracked by the FAA. Atleast one report during the congressional discusion listed by airport the percentage of non citizen workers at each airport. The FBI has stated that they have interviewed and investigated all airports involved and feel that Mousawi is the only other conspirator that was in the US!! I would have also thought a trained police officer would realize that it is a waste of time and a potential risk of compromising their plan, to place people in jobs when they specifically built it around using only things that screening allowed. I am sure that the commentator called them "idiots etc" that is part of the problem.

I am sure that you have been upset when people in Las Angeles and from around the world call LA police officers drug dealers, racist and murders because of the Rampart scandal and Rodeney King. Is that wrong to group good police officers with the bad, yes. As is what you have done by blasting all screeners. The monthly turnover rate has never been 95%, because with training time they would be on the job less than 2 weeks. I am sure many fail/quit right away and cause a strange bell curve of quick quiters and long term employees because it is a boring and repetive job. Now the yearly turnover rate at the biggest airports was over 100%.

Next about theft from screening lines, it is a big problem and the only way it will be solved is by slowing down the lines. I also have been lead to believe that things have been stolen by police officer from custody, but again I do not say that is every officer. I also saw how so many people at Denver are leaving their laptops and other items at stations. Many of which are probably being reported as stolen.

The screener that handed back the shoes and closed an airport when he walked away was probably just someone trying to keep things going and allow the person to hold his property. How many slammed him for that? In general I agree that they are not professionals. There is actually no reason for them to be. We do need some true police around that can interview etc but to just look in bags is assembly line work.

Now the next part sounds really familiar. I can't place it, oh I know. It sounds exactly like a police officer at a traffic stop or street check in New York, LA or even here in Omaha. I want to know how Tufbear would have responded to a civilian walking up when he was asking questions of someone as a police officer. I would bet he said move on. I also have seen police officers at traffic stops in Omaha where when pulling over a hispanic get frustrated and raise their voice thinking it will help them understand. Some non native speakers have even been killed because they did not know that they were not following instructions. That is just a normal(illinformed) answer to dealing with people that don't speak english. Actually all those non-citizen types probably handle this scenario better than most citizens. I even saw this attitude among my college instructors.

My 'beef' is with people asking politicians to protect them 100%. It is not possible. I am tired of the victims families saying they want to hold everyone responsible by legal action against them. See my comments above about the suits against the sherriffs for their actions at columbine. I would think that a former police officer would have put up with enough disrepect for enforcing laws, that he, for one, would give the screeners a minimum of respect.

So again I hope Tufbear reconsiders his decision to leave as I believe he has a lot to offer even if we all don't agree all of the time.


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Robert

That's right, the're communist security guards.

They used to hand out little trinkets on all CAAC (Cancel At All Cost) flights in China. Was that his job?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif Yeah, it's only the Chinese government that's totalitarian.

I'm not interested in learning any lessons from the Chinese government.

[This message has been edited by JeffS (edited 03-21-2002).]

IMO, I didn't raise it; I simply noted that it had in fact been played.

Exactly.