fastair

I rest my case on morales with this example. To back it up http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilto...l#post14320724

Shows a similar disregard in attempting to obtain an improper discount on Hilton hotels by booking a discount rate that one doesn't qualify for. The replies to the posts there are of the same nature, people are calling it fraud. Again, misrepresenting for personal gain, in that case claiming to be an employee of a company that has a discounted rate, when not, here advocating something again against the contract for personal gain.

One may say to my earlier argument that these people aren't immoral, but as I show here, some continue to misrepresent in many situations only for own personal gain.

Again, it isn't ma kettle that has a delayed flight to MKE that games the system, it is the repeat offenders that do it by design to fraudulently deceive to gain something they do not qualify for.

Colin

LAX to LHR at the last minute for business class works very well too at $2700 by throwing on a segment to Dublin.

Morality does not demand that a customer respect UA's desire to compete on price in the LAX-DUB market without reducing margins in the LAX-LHR market.

notquiteaff

Using the same "justification", do you also sneak into business class when paying for economy, since it's UA's goal to compete on price for economy travelers without reducing margins in the premium cabins?

Colin

No, but what I have been known to do is to refuse a onboard meal. Yes, I am paying for transport, a nice seat, a meal, and some crap wine, but I deliberately consume only a portion of the services I have bought.

nnn

I don't recall seeing in the CoC that you must consume the entire meal.

schley

Guys this is about CoC that all airlines have to forbid hidden city ticketing. The fact you don't think it is fair or right or whatever doesn't change the fact when you purchase an airline ticket you are signing an agreement. You can't pick and choose what you want to accept or not.

XLR26

So is the above-quoted language from the CoC what is supposed to prevent hidden city ticketing? Or, is there something else in the CoC that covers this issue?

rob_flies_ua

Two other snippets of the CoC:

Page 18 of the July 6, 2010 Contract of Carriage, Rule 135, Section B:
Page 39, Rule 255, Section B:

nnn

It seems pretty clear to me:

mahasamatman

Not necessarily true. Many adhesion contracts are unconscionable and can be challenged on those terms.

schley

How did I know you might find an exception?

zombietooth

Back when I was in the NAVY, I had all of my travel booked by the very competent staff of the SATO (Scheduled Airlines Ticket Office) that existed on most military installations at that time. I became friendly with the staff there because I was traveling a lot and they told me about these tricks, e.g. hidden-city ITs, some of which have been discussed here and on the special savings thread.

Flash forward to last year and a story from a friend of mine who is still in the service. He was on government business overseas when his stay had to be officially extended at the very last minute for 6 hours, causing him to miss his original connection flight to the gateway for his international flight home. Because his original itinerary had such a long layover at the international gateway, he could have caught a later one-way flight to the gateway for about $150- and made his original international flight home. Well, evidently THE RULES now require that the original ticket be converted to a one-way ticket and money paid to the airline by the government as compensation (along the lines of the rules previously discussed in this thread) and then, a new super expensive, last minute one-way ticket had to be issued according to government procedures for purchasing official travel. This really frustrated my friend as he could have easily made his original international flight on UA where he was already upgraded as a 1K (he had already called United and they had agreed to make an exception for his ticket because it was official business but, legally, the "rules" HAD to be observed!!). Instead he was booked in coach on a foreign carrier, so he couldn't upgrade. Total additional cost to the government: $9,000- plus. 9K vs $150-, and people wonder why our country is going bankrupt? Well, at least my friend got his SWU back.

Is there any ethical outrage here for the waste of our taxpayer dollars?

fastair

As an uneducated blue collar worker, how does one challenge a contract one has agreed to that one considers unconscionable? Is it saying at the time of ticketing "I refuse to agree to this, I will pick and choose what I want, and if you refuse to sell me on those terms, I will not agree to these terms"?, is it in court, or can one just decide to do whatever you want? My guess is the 1st one would work, the 2nd might work, the 3rd...well, is that the way this works?

As for those that feel corporations are there to be taken advantage of and cheated, 4%, that is what Harvard psychologist, Martha Stout says in her book. http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/in...ok_number=1530

"We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath. They could be your colleague, your neighbor, even family. And they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt."

http://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm

"Sociopaths view the world as their playground, and they target people who they can swindle, dominate and control, and they do so to achieve their personal goals."

The reference book isn't directed at you mahasamatman, just a reference for those that target things to swindle for their personal goals without guilt or remorse.


And zombie, the govt also saves 100's of millions each year via the GSA and their contracts. They (contracts) work both ways. If the GSA wants to use their negotiating power to get discounts by their rules that are agreed to by both parties, they to, must live by the rules (as dictated by the GSA in their request RFP) that they set and are agreed to by the airlines. Save millions here, lose a few k there...the flexibility in govt fares which allow changes and refunds when using official GSA fares are there specifically to prevent them paying fees like this on changes. If this person was traveling on a SATO issued GSA ticket, then the story is not holding water. If on the other hand, they bought a restrictive ticket because a) it was cheaper (and is permissible by the GSA) or b) the GSA choose not to put out a RFP for the city pairs in question, well, that is the GSA's fault, unless the airlines didn't feel there was enough traffic to come to an agreed upon discounted contract.

zombietooth

Well, of course, fastair, I only know what I have been told. However, I would trust my friend with my life so I know it happened, although I will say that is was an unusual destination as far as military is concerned.

Also, the government doesn't get the cheapest fares, they always have to buy within a certain group of fare buckets which are not the cheapest, according to my friend, as per their agreements with the airlines as you stated. I assume that they do get some flexibility as a trade-off for the elevated prices. But, you missed my point:

United had agreed to waive the rules in his case, it was the government travel authority (GSA?) that insisted that it be done in the most costly fashion. This absolutely constitutes, and epitomizes the phrase, "waste, fraud and abuse".

One more thing, fastair, many many years ago, I was trapped at DEN during a blizzard that closed the airport for 2 days. Luckily, I arrived on the second day when they believed that the connecting flights would be leaving. However, after having UA delay my flight to COS for about 9 hours, through a series of deceptive, "we finally have clearance and are going to start boarding soon" announcements, I confronted the GA about him lying to us because my wife in COS had heard on the news that no more flights would be leaving from DEN that day because of staffing/crew issues. He got indignant and insisted that the flight was going to leave and that if I left the gate area, I might miss my flight, and that I would be in violation of some BS FAA baggage rule if I didn't board the flight. At this point, I turned around to the crowd at the gate and said, "I've had enough, I am going to hire a taxi to take me to COS, who wants to go with me?". I started walking briskly and 8 people accompanied me. We hired a van taxi and all of us squeezed in and made it home in a couple of hours. United had not released me from my contract, and the fare to DEN at that time was about $100- more, so the literalist would interpret that me and my compadres had broken a solemn vow and contract and deserved our legal punishment. Yet, not only did I not receive a bill from UA, they even delivered my bags for free the next night with a thousand apologies. Unfortunately, rules are always conditional and literalism is a luxury few can afford.

Oh, and by the way, the flight to COS never left. Those who waited didn't get home for another 24 hours.

fastair

Zombie,
here is some reference material for ya. Glad you trust a serviceman with your life...that means they are doing their job, but here-say does not make something fact, you don't KNOW it to have happened, you only "heard" it happened from someone you trust.

This PR from the GSA is relatively new (this month.) http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/145193

..."July 1, 2010
Contact: Robert Lesino, (202) 501-1231
[email protected]

WASHINGTON — The U.S. General Services Administration announced today that it has added 749 new destinations and added three new carriers to its federal air travel program City Pairs. This program continues to be the largest managed airline program in the world and provides benefits to federal employees when traveling on official business that are not commercially available. By pairing sets of origins and destinations, City Pairs leverages the buying power of the federal government to price discounted one-way airline tickets estimated to save taxpayers more than $6.3 billion.

For fiscal year 2011 the City Pairs Program has set average federal rates at 68 percent below full commercial air fares and has increased ticketing flexibility for federal travelers. Federal travel varies per agency and mission and this program allows travelers to book the type of ticket they need while allowing for adjustments at no additional cost to the government.

“By leveraging our buying power as a governmentwide contracting arm for federal travel, GSA is able to negotiate prices through City Pairs with 13 air carriers to more than 5,000 locations at a significantly discounted cost to the federal government,” said GSA’s Acting Federal Acquisition Service Commissioner Steven J. Kempf. “Over the past year, GSA’s focus on finding additional cost avoidance while increasing choice and flexibility has once again created an even more dynamic City Pairs program that continues to lead the industry with firm, fixed pricing, flexible policy, and governmentwide savings.”"

I am (and others on this board) are kinda experts on this....you may trust him with your life, but trust us with info regarding this. Not saying it isn't true, just saying that in the long run, the contract clearly (per their own 6+BILLION dollar savings annually) saves the fed $$, and it is overall, in their best interests to maintain the integrity of the contracts. Sometimes, one has to pay more than one could get a fare for, but the flexibility of FREE CHANGES is key. Also, the GSA bids LAST SEAT AVAILABILITY in every market they price. Sometimes they bid a capacity controlled booking class, but always are they able to get their standard rate negotiated on any flight for which a coach ticket can be sold, as long as a contract exists for the market in question.

Other on this board can confirm this to be true. The govt required it to be done in the most costly fashion possible? Not a chance...I get your point, and you are hearing urban legend. I have read GSA contracts before (yes, the entire thing, I am a bit of a contract quoter, as others can attest to.) Link to it can be found here (about 90 pages long): https://www.fbo.gov/index?tab=docume...20b7c392e79fee I can assure you that there is no such provision in them to force "the most expensive way to do it" anywhere in there.