Anyone else seen the AFA contract video?
Jan 28, 2009, 2:39 pm
#16
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 350
On the contrary, the US Air crash actually improved the worth of FA's and did up their "safety professional" creditionals. Many passengers look at FA's as there for their safety now and pay attention to the safety briefings, versus only worrying about service issues. IMO, their bargaining position is strengthened, not diminished.
Jan 28, 2009, 3:16 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Always on the move
Programs: Something lifetime here and there
Posts: 1,867
and Differentiating your product/service from the competition creates value, and when you create value, you are (generally) able to demand more from your product/service from a pricing standpoint. Until UA does this, nobody (FA's, etc) will see the value of (in this case we are talking $$$$ in pay) translated to their paychecks.
I think if UA's FA's could do this, not only in that video could they include the FA's in it, but customers experiences/support as well. I think all of us here on FT could give support to small pockets of this, but as a whole 17,000 together (in the video they mentioned), I could not and I would bet I am not in the minority on this one.
On a final note, the talk of strike etc. is interesting. Maybe the FA's need to do that....and maybe UA needs to do what NW did with its mechanics or Reagan did with the ATC controllers (PATCO) in the 80's.
Jan 28, 2009, 4:41 pm
#18
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: DEN
Posts: 303
Like it or not your job is to serve passengers and make them comfortable unless there is an emergency which rarely, rarely, happens. Passengers in F and J don't fork over lots and lots of money to here about how you're keeping them so safe while reading your people magazine in the galley.
For a job that requires no degree and not really any skill, what F/As make is pretty good. I for one am sick of hearing F/As ..... about how they're safety professionals, I know you can save my life but unless we somehow happen to be on the 1 and a million flight that does crash, your job is to make passengers comfortable. If you don't like it, quit, they're are plenty of people that will take your job.
Jan 28, 2009, 5:05 pm
#19
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 74
Service?
Exactly. Planes rarely crash and most F/As never need to use their emergency training. Some F/As would have you think there firefighters who are unreasonably expected to serve beverages as there pulling people out of a burning building.
Like it or not your job is to serve passengers and make them comfortable unless there is an emergency which rarely, rarely, happens. Passengers in F and J don't fork over lots and lots of money to here about how you're keeping them so safe while reading your people magazine in the galley. For a job that requires no degree and not really any skill, what F/As make is pretty good. I for one am sick of hearing F/As ..... about how they're safety professionals, I know you can save my life but unless we somehow happen to be on the 1 and a million flight that does crash, your job is to make passengers comfortable. If you don't like it, quit, they're are plenty of people that will take your job.
Like it or not your job is to serve passengers and make them comfortable unless there is an emergency which rarely, rarely, happens. Passengers in F and J don't fork over lots and lots of money to here about how you're keeping them so safe while reading your people magazine in the galley.
For a job that requires no degree and not really any skill, what F/As make is pretty good. I for one am sick of hearing F/As ..... about how they're safety professionals, I know you can save my life but unless we somehow happen to be on the 1 and a million flight that does crash, your job is to make passengers comfortable. If you don't like it, quit, they're are plenty of people that will take your job."Just the help"? I bet you get a lot of mileage with that attitude.
I had a relative like you. Always complaining about the poor service he got. After dining with him a few times I saw that HE was the problem, not "the help".
I'm just sayin'
Jan 28, 2009, 5:23 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Pay is just one part of the contract, important, but not the most important. To me Section 6 is most important, work rules and Scope, keeping more flying from being shipped off to UAX, stuff like that. If United shows up wanting to give say 50% more flying to UAX, well, that would be an issue worth striking over. Things like that, it's not jsut about asking for $100 and the boss saying no.
+1
and Differentiating your product/service from the competition creates value, and when you create value, you are (generally) able to demand more from your product/service from a pricing standpoint. Until UA does this, nobody (FA's, etc) will see the value of (in this case we are talking $$$$ in pay) translated to their paychecks.
I think if UA's FA's could do this, not only in that video could they include the FA's in it, but customers experiences/support as well. I think all of us here on FT could give support to small pockets of this, but as a whole 17,000 together (in the video they mentioned), I could not and I would bet I am not in the minority on this one.
On a final note, the talk of strike etc. is interesting. Maybe the FA's need to do that....and maybe UA needs to do what NW did with its mechanics or Reagan did with the ATC controllers (PATCO) in the 80's.
and Differentiating your product/service from the competition creates value, and when you create value, you are (generally) able to demand more from your product/service from a pricing standpoint. Until UA does this, nobody (FA's, etc) will see the value of (in this case we are talking $$$$ in pay) translated to their paychecks.
I think if UA's FA's could do this, not only in that video could they include the FA's in it, but customers experiences/support as well. I think all of us here on FT could give support to small pockets of this, but as a whole 17,000 together (in the video they mentioned), I could not and I would bet I am not in the minority on this one.
On a final note, the talk of strike etc. is interesting. Maybe the FA's need to do that....and maybe UA needs to do what NW did with its mechanics or Reagan did with the ATC controllers (PATCO) in the 80's.
Exactly. Planes rarely crash and most F/As never need to use their emergency training. Some F/As would have you think there firefighters who are unreasonably expected to serve beverages as there pulling people out of a burning building.
Like it or not your job is to serve passengers and make them comfortable unless there is an emergency which rarely, rarely, happens. Passengers in F and J don't fork over lots and lots of money to here about how you're keeping them so safe while reading your people magazine in the galley. For a job that requires no degree and not really any skill, what F/As make is pretty good. I for one am sick of hearing F/As ..... about how they're safety professionals, I know you can save my life but unless we somehow happen to be on the 1 and a million flight that does crash, your job is to make passengers comfortable. If you don't like it, quit, they're are plenty of people that will take your job.
Like it or not your job is to serve passengers and make them comfortable unless there is an emergency which rarely, rarely, happens. Passengers in F and J don't fork over lots and lots of money to here about how you're keeping them so safe while reading your people magazine in the galley.
For a job that requires no degree and not really any skill, what F/As make is pretty good. I for one am sick of hearing F/As ..... about how they're safety professionals, I know you can save my life but unless we somehow happen to be on the 1 and a million flight that does crash, your job is to make passengers comfortable. If you don't like it, quit, they're are plenty of people that will take your job.FA's get checkrides from the FAA by watching their SAFETY operations and procedures. They do not get watched for their drink ettiquete. An FA could be all over you with great service, but if she misses a passenger not buckled in with the SB sign on and the Fed notices, she is busted and pays a fine. Now, that doesn't excuse bad attitudes or not giving good service when they do, but to demean them into hourly waitresses isn't right either. If you tell me what you do, I'm sure I could say the same about your profession.
Really, if you're "sick" of hearing FA's talk about safety, don't pay attention (see, its simple).
Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jan 28, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Jan 28, 2009, 5:43 pm
#21
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: UA 1K, AC *S, Marriott Plat....
Posts: 127
Very simplistic answer you gave and I don't have time to go into the whole contract with you. Suffice it to say, the contract is about a lot more than just a raise, 90% more.
Yeah, fire all the FA's and watch your airline go under. Real smart. You can't retrain thousands of FA's in a couple days. If it were that simple and easy, every airline would just hire thousands of replacement workers to replace the FA's that go on strike. It never happens, so maybe not as easy as you make it out to be????
Hmm, with that attitude which probably oozes from your, I see why you probably get bad service.
FA's get checkrides from the FAA by watching their SAFETY operations and procedures. They do not get watched for their drink ettiquete. An FA could be all over you with great service, but if she misses a passenger not buckled in with the SB sign on and the Fed notices, she is busted and pays a fine. Now, that doesn't excuse bad attitudes or not giving good service when they do, but to demean them into hourly waitresses so you feel better isn't right either.
If you're sick of hearing FA's talk about safety, don't pay attention (see, its simple).
Yeah, fire all the FA's and watch your airline go under. Real smart. You can't retrain thousands of FA's in a couple days. If it were that simple and easy, every airline would just hire thousands of replacement workers to replace the FA's that go on strike. It never happens, so maybe not as easy as you make it out to be????
Hmm, with that attitude which probably oozes from your, I see why you probably get bad service.
FA's get checkrides from the FAA by watching their SAFETY operations and procedures. They do not get watched for their drink ettiquete. An FA could be all over you with great service, but if she misses a passenger not buckled in with the SB sign on and the Fed notices, she is busted and pays a fine. Now, that doesn't excuse bad attitudes or not giving good service when they do, but to demean them into hourly waitresses so you feel better isn't right either.
If you're sick of hearing FA's talk about safety, don't pay attention (see, its simple).
Those who are still employed should be thankful for just that.
Jan 28, 2009, 5:46 pm
#22
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
If they are smart they will defer all action beyond negotiation until after the economy turns around (which could be a long while). Obviously United and other airlines are struggling to stay afloat in these trying times, and a strike by workers would undoubtedly be the nail in the coffin for any airline. Whats the point of striking for anything if your employer goes bankrupt?
Those who are still employed should be thankful for just that.
Those who are still employed should be thankful for just that.
Jan 28, 2009, 6:06 pm
#23
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Always on the move
Programs: Something lifetime here and there
Posts: 1,867
Yeah, fire all the FA's and watch your airline go under. Real smart. You can't retrain thousands of FA's in a couple days. If it were that simple and easy, every airline would just hire thousands of replacement workers to replace the FA's that go on strike. It never happens, so maybe not as easy as you make it out to be????
Yeah....real smart....
But, lets play the scenario out.... "What if speculation".... If UA sees contract talks aren't going well and the FA's are serious, then what is to stop UA "cranking up" FA training classes across the country? Start training them in SEP/OCT time period, and IF they feel the FA's demands are too high, and the strike talk (like the video says) then roll out the trained replacements. Remember...training for this job is not a long period of time (less than 2 months, 3 classes with a class size of say 30-45, being done at say 10-12 locations around the country) it can be done.
Then, will you really need 17,000 FA's in a year? What is to stop the replacement of B-737's with say CRJ900, that is at/under the 76 passenger size required in union contracts (i.e. ALPA's) with regards to express flying. We are already seeing that with bases being converted over to express (TUS, MIA, DAY, and others).
Then, the other factor is the CO factor. Is UA doing all this stuff right now to make the books look better so CO will buy them, merge etc? who knows....
But....hey....I am just playing one of many variation to a "what if scenario" out if strike saber rattling gets to the point of no return or resolution....
Just one last comment back about the FA's and replacements....
If you don't think this could happen, call the NW mechanics up and see what they tell you from there experience a few years back. And just an FYI...those classes for training replacements took 2-3 months, being done at several locations....
Jan 28, 2009, 6:23 pm
#24
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Hmmm....watching the video, I am NOT the one saying strike...I ONLY said MAYBE based upon the video the FA's having saying strike. MAYBE...here is a thought...they should paying attention to your advice you mentioned above instead of saber rattling.
Yeah....real smart....
But, lets play the scenario out.... "What if speculation".... If UA sees contract talks aren't going well and the FA's are serious, then what is to stop UA "cranking up" FA training classes across the country? Start training them in SEP/OCT time period, and IF they feel the FA's demands are too high, and the strike talk (like the video says) then roll out the trained replacements. Remember...training for this job is not a long period of time (less than 2 months, 3 classes with a class size of say 30-45, being done at say 10-12 locations around the country) it can be done.
Then, will you really need 17,000 FA's in a year? What is to stop the replacement of B-737's with say CRJ900, that is at/under the 76 passenger size required in union contracts (i.e. ALPA's) with regards to express flying. We are already seeing that with bases being converted over to express (TUS, MIA, DAY, and others).
Then, the other factor is the CO factor. Is UA doing all this stuff right now to make the books look better so CO will buy them, merge etc? who knows....
But....hey....I am just playing one of many variation to a "what if scenario" out if strike saber rattling gets to the point of no return or resolution....
Just one last comment back about the FA's and replacements....
If you don't think this could happen, call the NW mechanics up and see what they tell you from there experience a few years back. And just an FYI...those classes for training replacements took 2-3 months, being done at several locations....
Yeah....real smart....
But, lets play the scenario out.... "What if speculation".... If UA sees contract talks aren't going well and the FA's are serious, then what is to stop UA "cranking up" FA training classes across the country? Start training them in SEP/OCT time period, and IF they feel the FA's demands are too high, and the strike talk (like the video says) then roll out the trained replacements. Remember...training for this job is not a long period of time (less than 2 months, 3 classes with a class size of say 30-45, being done at say 10-12 locations around the country) it can be done.
Then, will you really need 17,000 FA's in a year? What is to stop the replacement of B-737's with say CRJ900, that is at/under the 76 passenger size required in union contracts (i.e. ALPA's) with regards to express flying. We are already seeing that with bases being converted over to express (TUS, MIA, DAY, and others).
Then, the other factor is the CO factor. Is UA doing all this stuff right now to make the books look better so CO will buy them, merge etc? who knows....
But....hey....I am just playing one of many variation to a "what if scenario" out if strike saber rattling gets to the point of no return or resolution....
Just one last comment back about the FA's and replacements....
If you don't think this could happen, call the NW mechanics up and see what they tell you from there experience a few years back. And just an FYI...those classes for training replacements took 2-3 months, being done at several locations....
The mechanics at NWA were a much smaller group of people to replace than United flight attendants. Also, when you hire a mechanic, he is already a mechanic. The training is for NWA procedures, not on how to become a mechanic. FA's are folks off the street most of the time, thus they need the full 90 days (I think that's how long it is) training. There is a big difference there. So I think the hurdle would be much greater. United has 5000 mechanics now versus 15000 back in 2001. So, replacing 5000 mechanics in a strike might be easier than 15000 flight attendants correct?
The training required to train that many flight attendants is HUGE, and a big committement from United. What do they do with all those FA's they hire to replace the strikers if they settle? let them go, hire them? Just saying hire replacements to strikers is taking a very big complicated issue and making it an easy one sentence answer. It doesn't work that way, and it shouldn't. Striking is the last resort of labor to work a fair contract. It shouldn't be so easy to overcome that management never fears coming to that scenario.
The CO factor is a non-issue IMO. If United pilots or FA's struck, CO pilots and FA's would not pick up extra duty since they are the same unions. So, United thinking they could pawn off extra work to that airline would fail miserably. Same if CO pilots struck, United pilots would not fly extra routes and sections to help CAL overcome their strike.
UAX is limited in how much flying they can do. They cannot ever exceed mainline flying. So, if there were a strike as you say, UAX could not take over all the flying since it A) is not allowed and B) there aren't enough UAX planes to do it.
The best way is do as the RLA sets out to do. Both sides negotiate and come to a contract both sides can live with.
Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jan 28, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Jan 28, 2009, 6:37 pm
#25
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,638
Most likely the only contract that Tilton and Co can live with is flight attendants working for UAL for free. Why not fire him? He's the biggest liability to United Airlines, and by extension all of the Star Alliance.
Why not fire him? He's the biggest liability to United Airlines, and by extension all of the Star Alliance.
Jan 28, 2009, 6:48 pm
#26
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Always on the move
Programs: Something lifetime here and there
Posts: 1,867
The mechanics at NWA were a much smaller group of people to replace than United flight attendants. So I think the hurdle would be much greater. United has 5000 mechanics now versus 15000 back in 2001. So, replacing 5000 mechanics in a strike might be easier than 15000 flight attendants.
The training required to train that many flight attendants is HUGE, and a big committement from United. What do they do with all those FA's they hire to replace the strikers if they settle? let them go, hire them? Just saying hire replacements to strikers is taking a very big complicated issue and making it an easy one sentence answer. It doesn't work that way, and it shouldn't. Striking is the last resort of labor to work a fair contract. It shouldn't be so easy to overcome that management never fears coming to that scenario.
HUGE for UA...of course, they have to plan accordingly and look at things from a cost/benefit scenario over a period of time. It was that way at NW too. These guys trained not knowing if they were getting a job or not. They didn't know until 48 hrs before if they were going to roll them out or not. When they were rolled out, they then offered the NW union mechanics positions at the wages. As far as $18,000 for FA's, I doubt that is where UA would come in at with replacements (again, under the narrow scenario I spelled out). But then again, I am not management so who knows. But I can say, have you looked at some of the regional carriers salary scale? They are higher than that (based on 80-90 hours per month of flying).
I could go on about this....but a couple of points...
1) My scenario is at a high level and can take many variations from it (and additional things I did not even mention, which I won't say in a public forum) in the details.
Bottom line is it can happen. Never say never...2) Again, not putting you AD in this boat, it is YOUR union brother that is coming right out on a video saying "Strike." It is not me, nor you doing this, it is them....and this is even before proposals are even put on the table to see where things are at. I can understand that you will come out and say where management is at vs the FA union needs to be negotiated on...fine...that is good....But not an outright strike talk months before the timetable spelled out...
And if I were UA, I would have to take that seriously and prepare a "what if scenario" for it.
3) I agree striking is not the way to go for anyone. Look AD, I have been a loyal UA flier for years logging millions of flight miles here. I have seen the good, bad and the ugly over the last 15 years and I don't want UA to go this route with strikes, work stoppages, CHAOS...etc. It would be great if UA could succeed and get to the way it was. Can it happen? sure...anything is possible...will it? hard to say....
Apologize for the long post to yours AD, I would also comment further on the CHAOS thing etc, but again....I think I will stop here and leave some of my thoughts/comments and opinions off a public forum...
Good night and long live UA!!!
Jan 28, 2009, 7:18 pm
#27
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Unions: keep the contract short
My advice to the union leadership is to keep any contract as short as possible. Right now, there really is not negotiating leverage. This is true throughout the entire economy. The workforce is in decline.
The only thing the unions can do is negotiate a fair current deal, but be prepared to re-negotiate in 12-18 months when hopefully things are looking better. A multi-year contract at this point would be problematic for the workers, IMHO.
The only thing the unions can do is negotiate a fair current deal, but be prepared to re-negotiate in 12-18 months when hopefully things are looking better. A multi-year contract at this point would be problematic for the workers, IMHO.
Jan 28, 2009, 8:07 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2008
Programs: My posts represent my personal opinions based on public information and not the official views of UA
Posts: 344
Sadly, there is a tension, but it doesn't have to be this way. The goals of management and labor should be the same ... survival, profitability, shared reward and value to our customers. Enlightment starts at the top with management. As Obama said ... "it is time to put childish ways behind" ... put the greed and excessive renumeration for executives in a graveyard and start anew. There has been more than a willing attitude at labor for sacrifice. Now it is time for top management to be real leaders.
Thank you for your business and loyalty.
Thank you for your business and loyalty.
That said, I see the rational desire of labor groups for better compensation and work rules to conflict with management's desire for a competitive cost structure, and it will never be easy to find the right balance.
This is why I don't see a new senior management team as a turnkey solution to UA's challenges. But you are right, these upcoming contract negotiations are definitely an opportunity for management and labor to work together.
Jan 28, 2009, 8:09 pm
#29
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
My advice to the union leadership is to keep any contract as short as possible. Right now, there really is not negotiating leverage. This is true throughout the entire economy. The workforce is in decline.
The only thing the unions can do is negotiate a fair current deal, but be prepared to re-negotiate in 12-18 months when hopefully things are looking better. A multi-year contract at this point would be problematic for the workers, IMHO.
The only thing the unions can do is negotiate a fair current deal, but be prepared to re-negotiate in 12-18 months when hopefully things are looking better. A multi-year contract at this point would be problematic for the workers, IMHO.
<<Good night and long live UA!!!>>>>
Good night to you too. I sure hope so.
AD
Jan 28, 2009, 8:24 pm
#30
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco
Programs: All-Around Kettle
Posts: 3,287
I read the OP as saying if the FAs want more bargaining power, what better power than demonstrating to management that their great service attracts customers and helps the bottom line? Sure, you can strike, but wouldn't this benefit all parties better?