Use of Systemwides
 

I think I'll be out of luck, but wnated to check with experts before I call UA.

I'm flying LAX-SIN on flight 1 (stopover in HKG). I know that 1 Systemwide will take me all the way to SIN even if there had been a change of flight numbers.

On the way back, I am flying UA 2; however, I am stopping for about 50 hours in HKG before leaving for LAX.

Other than using three Systemwides (no thanks), am I correct that I will be out of luck for an upgrade from SIN to HKG?

Thanks.

Always Flyin,

I believe your assumption is correct. I recently went ORD-NRT-PVG with a 26 hour stopover in Tokyo. Because I was over the 24 maximum stopover limit, I would have needed to use another SW to upgrade the NRT-PVG portion from C to F.

However, I have heard that sometimes there are some special rules that apply to flight thru Tokyo...so maybe someone else can tell us if this was unique to Tokyo or standard practice. In my limited experience with SW upgrades certs., I don't ever believe that I've heard of anyone breaking on up on a stopover of more than 24 hours.

I have had no problems using the 24 hour rule on international flights, but agree that any stop over 24hs. would mean usage of 3 certs. I would decide with part of the return leg you wish to be upgraded, and then apply the second SWide accordingly, or if you like to roll the dice, use the cert. upon check-in of your first return leg and try to get the boarding pass for your final leg (ie. after the 50 hour stopover) at that same moment. If the computer allows the agent to do this, you may luck out and may get the whole return leg upgraded with only one coupon.... (but this would be bending the rules). Good luck !! - Do let us know how is goes.


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Gaucho100K

Yes 24 hours seems to be the limit, and I arrange my long flights carefully to take that into account when using SYS. Last week or so flying MEL-LAX-SEA-LAX-ORD-DUS the agent at SEA point blank refused to issue me the First boarding passes SEA-LAX-ORD-DUS as "I'd had my stopover in Seattle".

I very politely agreed I had stopped in Seattle, had taken an afternoon tour, then had drinks and dinner for 5 hours with a bunch of FT'ers and then had a nice restful sleep at the Doubletree, but I had not in fact made a legal "Stopover" as I'd arrived only 21 hours earlier.

This cut no ice with her, so she phoned the It'l rate desk to find out how much to charge me for the SEA-LAX leg she said was illegal, and to "have clarified to me" the stopover rule. Interesting to watch her face as they explained it as I stood there. btw she then "waived" the illegal return leg to LAX. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

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~ Glen ~

LAX-HKG-SIN. HKG is a layover and not a stopover. On international itineraries, "A STOPOVER OCCURS WHEN THE PASSENGER DOES NOT DEPART AN INTERMEDIATE POINT WITHIN 24 HOURS."

On your way back, forget the upgrade from SIN-HKG. The flight is short of 4 hours.

seawolf,

Can you please elaborate on the stopover rule (an int'l stop of greater than 24 hrs.)? I thought that a C Class ticket yielded a (free) stopover, but my last experience proved that assumption false. Is this where I got it into my head that Tokyo is different from other int'l stopover points on a C Class ticket? Or, am I just inventing a perk that I wish United would grant to us?

I flew ORD-PVG a couple of weeks ago and stopped in Tokyo overnight to see a colleague (this is one of the two normal routes to PVG from ORD...through NRT or SFO). Instead of booking a C class ticket to PVG and taking a "free" 26 hour stop in Tokyo, I needed to purchase a ticket to Tokyo, and then another separate segment to PVG from NRT. The price difference between ORD-PVG and ORD-NRT is/was substantial.

How does this stopover rule work overseas?

JohnnyGlobal posted: I would hope that C would, because a cheapie Economy sometimes will. I was just pricing an el-cheapo from LAX-HKG-SIN-NRT-LAX in discounted Economy and even this low fare permited one stopover anywhere except Hawaii. Two day stopover in Hong Kong...no problem. Additional stopovers could be purchased for $125 each.

But to answer your question, there is no "general rule." The "rules" on this are determined by the particular fare basis that you purchased, although it's has been my experience that most C fare rules are fairly consistant, and I'm a bit surprised your C fare did not permit at least one stopover.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 11-19-2000).]

The stopover in HKG on the way back is free. That's not the problem. I just wanted to upgrade the whole way back. But I'm sure not going to waste a Systemwide for the short flight from SIN to HKG. It'll be put to good use on the long haul two days later from HKG to LAX...

Thanks for input. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Looks like I wasn't.

Following up on my previous post, if you don't stopover, the systemwide will carry you thru all the way to either a stopover point or your final destination.

So, in Always Flyin's case, using a systemwide for the return SIN-HKG would mean that he will need another systemwide from HKG-LAX because he stayed in HKG for more than 24 hours. If he stayed less than 24 hours, he would be doing a layover in HKG and the systemwide he "used" in SIN would carry him all the way to LAX.

Hmm. Just realized that this thread is my 777 posting.

[This message has been edited by seawolf (edited 11-20-2000).]

PremEx,

I may be dreaming this, but I swear that United has told me that Tokyo is treated differently in regard to stopovers--even with C class tickets.

Have you ever heard of something like this? I've always heard travelers complaining about how expensive tickets to Tokyo are, versus tickets to places like Beijing (did) and Shanghai, that go through Tokyo on certain connections from the US.

Perhaps I am completely mistaken, but United would NOT simply sell me a C Class ticket ORD-PVG, letting me stay overnight in NRT before catching the NRT-PVG connecting flight a day later. I spoke with three different agents and each claimed that there is a "special rule" when flying through Japan.

I'm confused.

Agree with seawolf... flight is short (less than four hours... don't see any way of using only one syswide for the return legs... i'm flying this leg tomorrow and the cs rep told me that economy is wide open... so hopefully you'll get to stretch a bit on that leg

Johnny Global I can't speak for paid C, but on my cheapo Economy Tickets I can have one stopover anywhere except Hawaii. On my most recent flight, I was holding a 2 day stopover in NRT but later changed the stopover to HKG. I've stopped over in NRT many times. I've never heard anything "special" about NRT, just HNL. Maybe it's a restriction on paid C tickets?

United Reservations just reconfimed my ability to stopover at NRT. The fare basis for my ticket is HNXPXSG.

Thanks, PremEx...I certainly don't understand what the trouble was with my particular experience. Perhaps next time I should be somewhat less accepting of the bill of goods that I'm being sold! It never did sound right, but when those agents start thowing out, "this is an XYZ fare, not a 123 fare..." type jargon, I typically tend to just stop arguing and accept my punishment. No more! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Some cheap Biz class (and probably first class as well) fares do NOT allow a stopover. Generally if the further stop has a lower market price than the stopover point. One example of this used to be able to be seen on Expedia. For an example, Price YYZ-MXP (Milan) in biz class. Generally CP's price for the nonstop was about $1700 RT. KL would match that price IF there was not a stopover in AMS. Pull up "fare rules" and see. (Other fares in the $3k range for biz do allow the stopover).

Remember that a 23 hour stopover does -not- count against any free stopovers.

JL

What's the maximum for the stopover? Or does that always depend upon fare rules? Is there a general stopover maximum?

UA It'l-It'l even via the USA ..... 24 hours

UA It'l to USA end point........... 4 hours

i.e. MEL-LAX-SEA-LAX-ORD-DUS was OK even tho I had a near 24 hour stop in SEA.

Had I not been ticketed to DUS, getting to MEL-SEA was the end of the line (as far as single SWU went, as I exceeded 4 hours there. It pays to arrange your trip VERY carefully!

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~ Glen ~

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 11-21-2000).]

You sure about this? In my experience, coming back to the US from overseas, the 24 hours still apply. My impression is that if any portion of your itinerary is international, the 24 hour stopover applies.

My experience is the same as seawolf's regarding International to US end point.

If your ticket allows a stopover, an upgrade voucher will (in most/all?) cases not!

UA's stopover definition on an international ticket (starting or ending outside Mexico-Canada-USA):

whatever is longer than the following is considered to be a stopover:[*]the next flight to your next destination on the same ticket (even it is way more than 24 hours) [*]>23 hours 59 minutes, but there is one day/night per calendar year where this time is extended to 24 hours 49 minutes ... and another day/night where it is shortened to 22 hours 59 minutes.

And this rule was always applied by UA on all my multiple InnerNorthAmerican Segments on my StarAlliance rtw-trips: I often even included a short night in SFO or other places, but kept they stay just under 24 hours, and was succesfull so with only one upgrade voucher.

.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 11-21-2000).]

Thanks. So am I right...

an international itinerary where you go from say SIN-NRT-LAX that allows one stopover...

you could stay in NRT for longer than 24 hours and not pay extra

is this correct?

Just a clarification please.If I had a systemwide upgrade cert, and was travelling SYD to Albany ,NY for a 23 hour layover,and then onto FRA,could I use the one cert for the whole trip or do I need two?
I guess I'm asking if the 23hrs 59 minute layover has to be taken at your first port of call in the USA on an international ticket OR can you fly onto your layover destination in the US and have it there?
Thanks, Ozflier

richard, we seem to have two topics going on here so I'll try to be clear.

First, fare and money:

If your fare basis permits one free stopover, yes you can make that stopover without it costing you any more money. There may be an additional charge for additional stopovers. Any stop you make that is less than 23 hours and 59 minutes is not a "stopover" and will not count against your free stopover.

That takes care of the fare and money issues. Now let's talk 1K Systemwide Upgrades:

If you take a free or paid stopover (that is a stop in excess of 24 hours), then that "breaks" the itinerary for purposes of using a 1K Systemwide. You would then need to surrender another one to continue to upgrade onward to your outbound destination.

If you stop under 23 hours and 59 minutes then that is not a "stopover" for purposes of the Systemwide and you may continue your onward travel to your outbound destination on the same certificate.

ozflier, it is my understanding that as long as you are traveling on an International ticket, you can make a stop anywhere at any legal connection point and have as many of these stops as you can arrange as long as they are all under 23 hours and 59 minutes.

23 hours 59 minutes = "Stop" or "Connection"
24 hours or more = "A Stopover"

Exception To The Above: (As Rudi points out) If the only other and next flight out to your next destination is over 24 hours away, as long as you take that next flight, your current stop will not count against you as a stopover.

Hope I got that right.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 11-21-2000).]

Thanks PremEx for clearing this up, now I believe I understand.

Yes, the multiple "stops" of less than 24 hours I have done twice to no comment on one Systemwide, as long as your ticketing basis allows this. You REALLY do need to know that the rules allow this tho. On my last long trip to DUS I forget how many RCC and gate agents wanted to make an issue of it. I guess they simply do not see too many people arrive It'l, criss-cross the USA and continue It'l, all on one upgrade coupon and in their MIND it seems "wrong". It is perfectly within the rules thought, but unless you are SURE of that yourself they are not going to be much help.

OZFLIER, what you are doing is exactly what I just did OZ-Germany via USA but for goodness sakes get the FIRST UA desk that lifts your SYS to note your booking thus. That's if they lift the cert. Otherwise ... :-#

Re the 4 hours within USA note, I posted that in good faith as that was precisely what was spat at me last week by the Gestapo agent at Seattle outlined in my post above. And this is "why she let me off on this occassion" as she was "so used to invoking the 4 hour rule". Hey, she was in such a bad mood, especially as UA It'l desk had over-ruled her in front of me on the phone, nothing she said would have surprised me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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~ Glen ~

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 11-21-2000).]

PremEx basically covered all the rules.

Ozstamps, you mentioned in another thread that the SEA agent mentioned the four hour rule. She's misinformed. For domestic itineraries, a stopover occurs when the passenger does not depart an intermediate point within 4 hours.

Thanks,
That does make my planning easier.
Ozstamps, you mentioned that some of us( sensitive issue )may be going to receive a "round trip upgrade" voucher .I have not heard of one of these but I assume that one of its advantages would be that that you could take a multi segment flight with more than 24 hour duration stops and use the one voucher for the entire trip.
Ozflier

ozflier. That was my "inside poop" tip to these boards 2 weeks ago from a Million Miler who heard it "from way on high". He was right of course.

All 1Ks this week got the choice of among 4 goodie selections, Two Systemwide upgrades. Which is exactly a round trip upgrade anywhere UA flies ... just as long as your en-route stops don't exceed 24 hours, and there are NC or NF seats in inventory, but they can be locked in a year out if needs be. Thats what I did to and from DUS.

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~ Glen ~

Are the rules the same for mileage award upgrades.

Example: Are you allowed to stopover in Hawaii for longer that 24 hours, on you way to or from Asia without costing more miles than 50k on H fare?

Premex Said:

Now that is an interesting one in cases of low route frequency.

I just booked today the UA April 1 rtw starting LAX. Booked coach and am using SWU to upgrade it all, in fact UA have upgraded the booking already even tho it is not yet ticketed .. a great tip I learned this week from Premex. Never knew they'd do that. As long as I buy it direct thru UA (and I'll be using a UA 15% off coupon anyway) it does not need be PAID for until late March, but seats 15 A/B are mine until then, on all 5 x 747-400 legs. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Anywayt, that flight into HKG and Delhi leaves a few hours after it arrives and is a once a day.

HKG-DEL arrives 2.00am and leaves 3.34am. I suppose unless you are on the 3.45am that day you have made a "stopover". Or have I? What I am asking is if I arrive at 2am, and fly out the NEXT day at 3.45am, will they wear that as "next flight"?

What do others think?




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~ Glen ~

yes - it defenetly is then a stopover, any 'next flight'-definition is really just the next flight (as long as it is a legal connection).

Glen,

Interesting question about the India "stopover" rule. I agree with Rudi...it is a legal connection, so I'd imagine that UA would hold you to it. But you're on a roll of sorts with UA as of late...so maybe you can work some magic to have the rules bent by about 26 hours or so!

I owe PremEx several beers should we ever cross paths. I had no idea that I could upgrade flights using SWUs BEFORE the reservation was booked AND paid for. I just made two reservations for this Spring and upgraded all of the overseas segments on UA to F (although they aren't showing any First Suite configs. on any of the routes I booked...not yet, anyhow).

The 1K reservations lady gave me the impression that she was doing me a BIG favor by holding my reservations (in C class...and each ticket was $6,000 +, mind you) for longer than 3 days. Was this because she was holding the upgraded F space for me? Usually you have up until one hour before flight time to ticket a C Class ticket, right?

I'm going to see if I can get these tickets cheaper someplace else...United doesn't understand the term "discount" for int'l Biz Class. Which leads me to another question: how does one book a "D" Class ticket? Is this solely a RTW fare classification, or can I go somewhere and find a nice Biz Class ticket booked in D?

Johnny. Yes, I owe Premex a few beers plus some, as that is exactly what they did for me too. No need to ticket for 4 months, but held seats 15A/B upstairs. Great. I'll ost a thread here on this flight soon in case others wish to join in.

Rudi speaks of buying "grey market" D class UA seats out of Helvetica. Not sure where else they sell them. SWU even works on D it says. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

My guess is on then rtw, seeing I still hold paper SWU that not all sectors will be pulled anyway, so won't upset me too much - even if they are. I'll work some voodoo mathematics on the poor desk clerks about 24 hour stopover, next best connections, and phases of the moon, and they will get a headache and let me go hopefully!

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~ Glen ~

Just checked UA schedule.

UA 0001 Departs HKG at 2030 and gets to DEL at 2330

UA 0001 Departs DEL at 0315 and gets into LHR at 0750.

Looks like UA 0001 DEL-LHR is a valid connection for UA 0001 HKG-DEL.