International travel stop over rules
Dec 25, 2007, 1:59 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: 2MM, *wood, Hyatt GP
Posts: 110
International travel stop over rules
Q: the rule reads that you cannot have a stop over on an international award in the same "geographical" region. I have had one RA tell me that SFO-SIN-ICN-SFO was not a legal stop over since ICN would not be the "normal" routing from SIN to SFO but HKK and NRT would be. A seperate intra north asia award would have to be used to get from NRT to ICN! IMO the rules are not that specific. I interpert "geographical" region to mean either "north, central, south" asia as different geographical regions; with that said, any city served by StarA could qualify as a stop over.
I got the impression that there is no concrete answer, as the RA put me on hold while he solicited help in interperting the rule. Reading past threads I could expect something like this out of India, however, this was from IAD.
I got the impression that there is no concrete answer, as the RA put me on hold while he solicited help in interperting the rule. Reading past threads I could expect something like this out of India, however, this was from IAD.
Dec 25, 2007, 2:13 am
#2
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 296
You are right. I just flew a *A award trip (originating in ORD) with stopovers in both SIN and TPE.
Dec 25, 2007, 6:13 am
#3
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: OOL
Programs: VA Plat, QF LTS, UA MM, Hilton Diamond, Rydges Black, ,Le-Club Gold
Posts: 3,659
The rules are very quaint. Whether an award or a paid fare, there's always an "MPM" (maximum permitted mileage) underway to that point. Otherwise you get that wonderful Alitalia situation which had people endlessly crisscrossing the globe on a ticket from CMB to JFK via NZ, S Africa, Japan etc.
The MPM is usually 10% more than the actual distance between the points. So when you are looking for award travel to 2 destinations in the same region, you pick the farthest one as your "endpoint" and the other one as your "stopover", and hope that the stopover is reachable within the MPM to your endpoint. If not, it's an extra award or a paid sector.
There's an exception, you can ask for an award whenever there is a published fare via a particular routing even if it's too many miles for the MPM. For example *A awards to Bali (DPS) always seem to exceed the MPM but with persistence you can make an award booking on the basis that it is a published route.
The MPM is usually 10% more than the actual distance between the points. So when you are looking for award travel to 2 destinations in the same region, you pick the farthest one as your "endpoint" and the other one as your "stopover", and hope that the stopover is reachable within the MPM to your endpoint. If not, it's an extra award or a paid sector.
There's an exception, you can ask for an award whenever there is a published fare via a particular routing even if it's too many miles for the MPM. For example *A awards to Bali (DPS) always seem to exceed the MPM but with persistence you can make an award booking on the basis that it is a published route.
Dec 25, 2007, 11:47 am
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23,999
Agent is DEFINITELY wrong. Hang up and try again, that's sometimes the only way to get stuff done with UA.
Dec 25, 2007, 3:05 pm
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: 2MM, *wood, Hyatt GP
Posts: 110
After reading posts, called and connected with HNL/RA.....perfect, no problems with stopover in ICN according to her understanding of the rules. You advice is so right.........rule one: hang up and try again until you get the right answer. A sad way to approach things! Appreciate everone's feedback!
Dec 26, 2007, 1:16 am
#6
Join Date: Feb 2007
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I take that ambiguous phrase in the rules about no stopovers within a geographic region to mean "if your award is entirely within one region, then you are not allowed a stopover." So it does not apply to SFO-ICN.
When booking awards, I've been shocked by the lack of knowledge and inconsistency among the agents. One agent said that an A-B connection is a stopover if flight B starts > 24 hour after flight A STARTS (obviously wrong: what matters is when flight A lands). Another said that you cannot piece together a trip segment-by-segment (A-B-C-D), but instead you're stuck with the limited options the system gives you from origin to destination (i.e., usually none). The list goes on...
This frequent incompetence cuts both ways, however. Sometimes you can get them to make mistakes in your favor (happened to me a few times).
When booking awards, I've been shocked by the lack of knowledge and inconsistency among the agents. One agent said that an A-B connection is a stopover if flight B starts > 24 hour after flight A STARTS (obviously wrong: what matters is when flight A lands). Another said that you cannot piece together a trip segment-by-segment (A-B-C-D), but instead you're stuck with the limited options the system gives you from origin to destination (i.e., usually none). The list goes on...
This frequent incompetence cuts both ways, however. Sometimes you can get them to make mistakes in your favor (happened to me a few times).
Dec 26, 2007, 12:27 pm
#7
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlántida, Canelones, Uruguay (MVD) and rarely GNV
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Posts: 2,673
Sure you can have a stopover in a region on an intl award. That's how my upcoming Bangkok/Phuket trip is set up. DEN-HKT is the origin/destination. Connections in LAX and BKK on the continuous outbound to HKT. The return from HKT via BKK has a 5 day stopover in BKK before the BKK-LAX-DEN final legs.
Your problem might be what other posters mentioned upthread - you may be looking for something that is neither within MPM nor on a published routing. Not because it's a same-region stopover.
But call again. Sometimes you'll get an agent or supervisor to go the extra mile.
Your problem might be what other posters mentioned upthread - you may be looking for something that is neither within MPM nor on a published routing. Not because it's a same-region stopover.
But call again. Sometimes you'll get an agent or supervisor to go the extra mile.
Dec 26, 2007, 2:25 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: 2MM, *wood, Hyatt GP
Posts: 110
Sure you can have a stopover in a region on an intl award. That's how my upcoming Bangkok/Phuket trip is set up. DEN-HKT is the origin/destination. Connections in LAX and BKK on the continuous outbound to HKT. The return from HKT via BKK has a 5 day stopover in BKK before the BKK-LAX-DEN final legs.
Your problem might be what other posters mentioned upthread - you may be looking for something that is neither within MPM nor on a published routing. Not because it's a same-region stopover.
But call again. Sometimes you'll get an agent or supervisor to go the extra mile.
Your problem might be what other posters mentioned upthread - you may be looking for something that is neither within MPM nor on a published routing. Not because it's a same-region stopover.
But call again. Sometimes you'll get an agent or supervisor to go the extra mile.
"† One stopover en route to your final destination or one open jaw is permitted for a flight award on United between the continental U.S. and Hawaii or between the U.S. and the Caribbean, Asia, Australia, Central America, South America, Middle East or Europe. No stopovers are permitted within a geographic region. "
The underlining is mine. IMO a "geographic region" means within a specific region such as S. Asia, Central Asia, N. Asia, etc. as described in the various award regions serviced. So, your BKK/Phuket would fall within that category of same geographic region where no stopovers are permitted. If this is correct, as one post suggests "sometimes you can get them to make mistakes in your favor..."
Dec 27, 2007, 10:48 pm
#9
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: Northwest, United
Posts: 3,256
I'm certainly no expert, but...my understanding was that the "within one geographic region" limitation referred to the starting and ending points of the trip -- that is, if your trip begins and ends in the same region, then no stopover is permitted.
This past summer, I flew from SEA -> DPS (actually SEA-SFO-HGK-SIN-DPS), and did a "stopover" in BKK on the way back (DPS-BKK, stopover 2 weeks, BKK-NRT-SEA). Yeah, the trip over was hellishly long (big layovers in every stop, too), but the routing worked (with a little prompting). In this case, the stopover in BKK was in the same region as the departure point (DPS, Bali), but since the flight originated in North America, the stopover was OK.
I took this to mean that if I was flying entirely within one zone, for example, from JFK to LAX, no "stopovers" were permitted.
FWIW, it did take some work on my part to get this to work: I spent some time researching each possible (separate) leg on all *A routes, called (India) and initially was told "sorry, no seats available" (agent just typed in departure and destination cities, and made no effort to make it work). Called back and got a friendly person in Manilla who took each leg as I fed it to them and eventually made it all work.
The mantra, "if you don't like the answer you get, hang up and call back" is certainly true.
YMMV.
This past summer, I flew from SEA -> DPS (actually SEA-SFO-HGK-SIN-DPS), and did a "stopover" in BKK on the way back (DPS-BKK, stopover 2 weeks, BKK-NRT-SEA). Yeah, the trip over was hellishly long (big layovers in every stop, too), but the routing worked (with a little prompting). In this case, the stopover in BKK was in the same region as the departure point (DPS, Bali), but since the flight originated in North America, the stopover was OK.
I took this to mean that if I was flying entirely within one zone, for example, from JFK to LAX, no "stopovers" were permitted.
FWIW, it did take some work on my part to get this to work: I spent some time researching each possible (separate) leg on all *A routes, called (India) and initially was told "sorry, no seats available" (agent just typed in departure and destination cities, and made no effort to make it work). Called back and got a friendly person in Manilla who took each leg as I fed it to them and eventually made it all work.
The mantra, "if you don't like the answer you get, hang up and call back" is certainly true.
YMMV.
Dec 28, 2007, 11:37 am
#10
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: UA Mileage Plus, KLM Flying Dutchman
Posts: 72
Dec 28, 2007, 12:19 pm
#11
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 296
It was 90,000 miles (one *A biz class USA->Asia award) and $47 in taxes.
Dec 28, 2007, 2:01 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: 2MM, *wood, Hyatt GP
Posts: 110
I just posted in my trip report thread...here's the explanation: http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthrea...55#post8966255
It was 90,000 miles (one *A biz class USA->Asia award) and $47 in taxes.
It was 90,000 miles (one *A biz class USA->Asia award) and $47 in taxes.
Dec 28, 2007, 2:06 pm
#13
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 296
So how did you get access to ANA's *A award planning tool? Did you have to join ANA's program or were you able to access the tool from their website. If so, what were the steps? Sounds like their award availability program/site is much superior to UAL's, as I have never succeeded in finding anything there and have had to call the CC to look up availability. Thanks for sharing!
Sometimes you'll find that UA reservations agents can't see availability that you can see on the ANA site. That's because UA holds back some expensive award seats (and maybe other airlines withhold seats too, but I'm not sure). Search for "starnet" if you want to read more about the controversy. But usually, ANA's tool is indicative of what UA agents see. I never ran into any Starnet problems booking my tickets.