Has a UA FA ever been disciplined for poor service?
Nov 18, 2006, 3:16 pm
#31
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: my posts are my sole opinion and do not represent the opinions of UAL CORP and their subsidiaries
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Paubri
I would hate to see the FA get in trouble for doing everything he should have done in the first place and not have my letter "cancel out" the bad report.
So, basically, our side of the story, backed up by our "orchid" letters, cancelled out the negative letter, and my supervisor let me keep it as a souviener.
If you ever witness something like this, I recommend you write a quick note to back up the fa.
Nov 18, 2006, 3:18 pm
#32
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: my posts are my sole opinion and do not represent the opinions of UAL CORP and their subsidiaries
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by skylady
How do you know if she was disciplined?
Nov 18, 2006, 3:21 pm
#33
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Not at home
Programs: MP
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by wimpypipsqueak
I wonder if this has anything to do with the consistant service offered 
Nov 18, 2006, 9:27 pm
#34
Join Date: Sep 2002
Programs: The opinions expressed here are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the airlines I worked for.
Posts: 1,893
Back when I was a supervisor, when I got "onion" letters where my specific FA was identified by the customer or co-worker, I had notify them of the adverse document (section 25K of the contract) and call them in to discuss it. We weren't supposed to tell the FAs what the adverse doc was about to prevent them from concocting an untruthful defense in advance. That was always difficult for the FA to hear so I usually had to reassure the FA without using promising language.
When the FA comes in to meet, first thing you have to do is show the adverse doc before discussing it (again, per the contract). I'd discuss it with the FA and usually collect a written statement to capture their position (just in case they try to change their story later on down the road).
Sometimes the FA was able to provide additional info that helped make the complaint letter make more sense. Other times they would just admit that they didn't respond as they normally did and why.
Each domicile keeps a log of passenger complaints. WHQ keeps the originals. If I determined the letter was bogus and it could be verified as such (you have to defend your actions to your manager), then I would log it as such and discard my copy.
If the letter was justified, would log it and enter a complaint into the FA's work history in the computer.
Sometimes I would contact the customer directly for more info, but you have to go through Customer Relations (WHQPW) first, in case they are already in contact with that customer or if the Legal Department sees an issue with it.
Either way I think the most important thing was to use this meeting time as a coaching session to work collaboratively with the FA to come up with tools, ideas or suggestions on how they could better handle or avoid this type of situation in the future.
Now, if there was already a pattern of complaints in the work history (rare), or if the incident was was justified and the behavior was egregious (not very common but it definitely happens), then I'd have to write a Letter of Charge against the FA and bring them before a hearing, which usually results in suspension or discharge. The union can get involved at any point after the meeting if the FA asks for them. Usually it's to represent them at the hearing (much like an informal court session with myself as attourney for company and union as attourney for FA with another Supervisor as the judge).
The FA or her union rep can also file a grievance on any matter whatsoever, although most of these grievances go dead in the water since AFA has other priorities they are battling for at the WHQ level.
The FA can request a witness if there is more than 1 management rep present (very rare), or if the meeting could result in termination (except where the FA's next step in the progressive discipline process would have been termination anyway).
Few supervisors stay in their position for more than 1-2 years. And despite United's claim to the contrary, I must agree that United has its supervisors focussed on dependability more than consistent passenger service. The FA to Supervisor ratio is anywhere between 140:1 and 350:1. Just with covering briefings and disciplining FAs who call in sick 3 or more times per year, it's no wonder you were rarely permitted to observe FAs working.
When the FA comes in to meet, first thing you have to do is show the adverse doc before discussing it (again, per the contract). I'd discuss it with the FA and usually collect a written statement to capture their position (just in case they try to change their story later on down the road).
Sometimes the FA was able to provide additional info that helped make the complaint letter make more sense. Other times they would just admit that they didn't respond as they normally did and why.
Each domicile keeps a log of passenger complaints. WHQ keeps the originals. If I determined the letter was bogus and it could be verified as such (you have to defend your actions to your manager), then I would log it as such and discard my copy.
If the letter was justified, would log it and enter a complaint into the FA's work history in the computer.
Sometimes I would contact the customer directly for more info, but you have to go through Customer Relations (WHQPW) first, in case they are already in contact with that customer or if the Legal Department sees an issue with it.
Either way I think the most important thing was to use this meeting time as a coaching session to work collaboratively with the FA to come up with tools, ideas or suggestions on how they could better handle or avoid this type of situation in the future.
Now, if there was already a pattern of complaints in the work history (rare), or if the incident was was justified and the behavior was egregious (not very common but it definitely happens), then I'd have to write a Letter of Charge against the FA and bring them before a hearing, which usually results in suspension or discharge. The union can get involved at any point after the meeting if the FA asks for them. Usually it's to represent them at the hearing (much like an informal court session with myself as attourney for company and union as attourney for FA with another Supervisor as the judge).
The FA or her union rep can also file a grievance on any matter whatsoever, although most of these grievances go dead in the water since AFA has other priorities they are battling for at the WHQ level.
The FA can request a witness if there is more than 1 management rep present (very rare), or if the meeting could result in termination (except where the FA's next step in the progressive discipline process would have been termination anyway).
Few supervisors stay in their position for more than 1-2 years. And despite United's claim to the contrary, I must agree that United has its supervisors focussed on dependability more than consistent passenger service. The FA to Supervisor ratio is anywhere between 140:1 and 350:1. Just with covering briefings and disciplining FAs who call in sick 3 or more times per year, it's no wonder you were rarely permitted to observe FAs working.
Nov 18, 2006, 9:45 pm
#35
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Not at home
Programs: MP
Posts: 2,312
John, thanks for the excellent explanation and back up on the dependability issue. 
I mentioned your name to some f/a's who all thought very highly of you and wished you were still around.
I mentioned your name to some f/a's who all thought very highly of you and wished you were still around.
Nov 18, 2006, 10:04 pm
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: HH Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 10,457
Do the airlines no longer employ "mystery shoppers", people who are paid to anonomously evaluate the service???
Nov 18, 2006, 10:17 pm
#37
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Programs: DL PM, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 2,367
Originally Posted by formeraa
Do the airlines no longer employ "mystery shoppers", people who are paid to anonomously evaluate the service???
Nov 19, 2006, 8:07 am
#38
Join Date: Aug 2006
Programs: UA 1P, AA, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,160
Originally Posted by DogHead
Ah... so you can get away with murder as long as you're healthy and show up for "work"... 
Someone at UA WHQ needs his/her head examined.
Someone at UA WHQ needs his/her head examined.
Nov 19, 2006, 11:42 pm
#39
Join Date: Aug 2006
Programs: UA 1P, AA, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,160
John, you sound like a very thoughtful person - one who believes in treating everyone and every case on an individual basis.
I am an area manager for a well known company.
One of my units has hired a fair number of UA agents on a part time basis. I would say we usually have 2 UA or former UA employees working for us at any time. I am good friends with one couple whose wife is with UA.
She likes UA and her job, but she does paint a different picture. She makes it sound very much like you are treated like a number and not an individual. For instance, 3 sick calls within a year and you reach a certain level of discipline. One could call off 3 times in a month and have several complaint letters in his/her file, while another may call off 3 times in a year minus one day and have several positive letters in his/her file and they are given the exact level of discipline. Is this true?
I have talked about patterns, as have others. I am curious, are there guidelines? I am not trying to make this sound like a science but I wonder if different supervisors may look at things (such as a ratio of good/bad letters)differently. If so, some supervisors will come across as being lenient, while others more demanding. Is this possible? Some employees disciplined, some not?
These hearings. I realize you must give the appearance of 'objective' and 'fact finding' but I do not think for a minute an employee thinks they are objective. Behind closed doors when supervisors to supervisors talk, are you really talking about being objective?
I am curious about one other thing. When you enter something in the computer, does it stay with the employee for as long as they are with UA? I would hate to be a long term basically good employee and have something entered by someone who will only be around for a year or two.
Thanks
I am an area manager for a well known company.
One of my units has hired a fair number of UA agents on a part time basis. I would say we usually have 2 UA or former UA employees working for us at any time. I am good friends with one couple whose wife is with UA.
She likes UA and her job, but she does paint a different picture. She makes it sound very much like you are treated like a number and not an individual. For instance, 3 sick calls within a year and you reach a certain level of discipline. One could call off 3 times in a month and have several complaint letters in his/her file, while another may call off 3 times in a year minus one day and have several positive letters in his/her file and they are given the exact level of discipline. Is this true?
I have talked about patterns, as have others. I am curious, are there guidelines? I am not trying to make this sound like a science but I wonder if different supervisors may look at things (such as a ratio of good/bad letters)differently. If so, some supervisors will come across as being lenient, while others more demanding. Is this possible? Some employees disciplined, some not?
These hearings. I realize you must give the appearance of 'objective' and 'fact finding' but I do not think for a minute an employee thinks they are objective. Behind closed doors when supervisors to supervisors talk, are you really talking about being objective?
I am curious about one other thing. When you enter something in the computer, does it stay with the employee for as long as they are with UA? I would hate to be a long term basically good employee and have something entered by someone who will only be around for a year or two.
Thanks
