cesco.g

Can't help, but "cartoons" comes to mind .....

flyinbob

Amazing what you can afford when someone else is paying for your national defense.

Mike Jacoubowsky

The problem comes from the inevetible conflict as a modern, industrialized country attempts to maintain a living standard that has been based upon cheap imported raw materials... raw materials which, as the 3rd world develops, are no longer so cheap. And the new global economy is such that the modern, industrialized world no longer has a monopoly on brainpower or financial resources either.

The French "quality of life"- and for that matter, much of our own- could be seen as having been subsidized by their (and our) relative power in the marketplace... both of resources and ideas. As that changes, as the 3rd world (and most importantly China) see their living standards rise... they'll be placing demands upon the world's resources that are going to drive their prices quite high. And as both the US and France have moved from being producers to consumers... a trend aided by the fact that other countries can produce stuff more cheaply than we can, and we seem to value cheapness above all else (witness the success of WalMart)...

...Eventually we (both the US and France) end up with really inexpensive products in our stores, but without the means to buy things because so many will be unemployed.

The "quality of life" that so many desire can only be supported through extraordinary improvements in productivity. Where will that productivity come from? In the old days, it (the quality of life) could be maintained by armies, but that sort of thing isn't going so well these days. It most assuredly will not come from overly-protectionist labor laws that might temporarily work in a society isolated from the rest of the world... but over time cause everthing to collapse because people aren't prepared for the changes ahead.

In my opinion, the clock is ticking, and people who decide to get their tail in gear and find ways to become more productive are going to be miles ahead of those who feel they're entitled to something just because they're French, or US-born, or whatever.

flime2dc

You hit the nail on the head!!

someotherguy

Alternatively, it might have something to do with the fact that French industrial productivity per worker/hour is the highest in the world.

Mike Jacoubowsky

First, that's not true (Norway, for example, is considerably higher). Second, check out this article on productivity http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1999/07/art3full.pdf and, on page 7, you'll find this-

"Productivity is only one of the factors determining living standards. Living standards also depend on “how many mouths need to be fed” from what is produced. In this respect, important differences are observed between countries. For example, the level of productivity in France is above that of the United States. But, this productivity advantage is eroded by the effects of fewer working hours and lower labor force participation rates, particularly among the working age population.

As a final note, one needs to be cautious in applying such information directly for policy purposes. If, for example, the United States has lower productivity due to greater use of low-skilled labor than has France, efforts by France to increase labor force participation might reduce that country’s productivity while increasing per capita income."

Sorry I can't quickly come up with something more recent than 1997, but I do have a life outside of FT.

I hate it when my Economic background (my major back in college) comes back to haunt me! And when somebody combines economics with France (one of my favorite places), I'm suckered into the battle. Darn you!

planemechanic

They also have 9.5% unemployment, an economy that is stagnant at 1.5% growth (the USA grew 3.5% last year as a comparison) and and a 48.1% income tax rate. The people of france are paying for their socialist tendancies in more ways than they realize.

rangerss75

The top rate of income tax is 48% (to be reduced to 40% on incomes earned this year and in the future) but there are many lower rates. I have a fairly modest salary and because of various tax allowances pay none. Nothing. Zero. Nil. So does over 50% of the population. So we are not a high income tax economy. We pay for other (expensive) things through other taxes. Sales tax (VAT) is more than double most US states (and the government's biggest form of income). Social Security contributions ae about the same (though they are compulsory here - you cannot NOT have health insurance).

But to come back to the original topic. It seems the alternative centres of employment are LHR and FRA, and mostly LHR. Housing costs are about three to four times more expensive in London than in France. On US dollar salaries that just won't work. Going to FRA means learning another language from scratch (as does LHR for things like the kids in school) and adapting to a new culture. It is not just the same as moving elsewhere in the country. If it had been, say, Nice that was closing and moving everyone 600 miles to Paris, there would have been no problem. Many of the FAs already commute (on my last flight there was one from Lyon, 300 miles south of Paris, and one from Belgium, 200 miles north). You cannot commute from these places to another country.

As regards French unemployment benefits (to which the FAs - and United - have presumably been contributing through a percentage of their salary - it's called compulsory unemployment insurance and it's not a perk!) if the employees are made redundant for economic reasons the employer must pay severance pay for a period based on past service. During this time there will be no state unemployment pay. When that payment stops the unemployment pay (plus regular checks to see that they are indeed applying/training for new jobs) will be paid for up to 21 months. It is a comparatively generous benefit, but it is still much, much lower (my guess about 50 to 60% of a FAs salary) than paid employment. No unemployment pay is paid if you leave your work voluntarily. Hence, I presume, the strike, to persuade UA to accept their responsibilities and admit that this particular closure is a bit more than simply transferring staff to another base.

planemechanic

Ah, But therein lies the point. They are not redundent, they are needed in other locations. And that is why they are talking about an illegal stike, to get something that they are not legally entitled to.

Typical union BS.

osxanalyst

And these laws are partly why their unemployment rate is much higher than in the U.S. and their economic growth is much slower.

sorry if this is repetitive - did not read to end of thread before replying to comemnts in prior page.

WBurcham

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. Many of us don't understand what it's like to 1) live in London (so INSANELY expensive) or 2) have to jump from life in one culture to another. I had to do the 2nd about 8 days after I got forcibly removed from New Orleans. I ended up in the UK and the culture shock took months to get over, i cannot imagine what it would have been like if i'd moved to Paris or Madrid!

It seems as if UA agreed to take on the French benefits and as such should follow through with their agreement. I wouldn't want to be forced to leave my country to work and don't think that any of the FA's should be either!

thegingerman

Feel free to respond by PM to this one, but do you (or anyone else) have any idea why Japan's per worker-hour GDP is SO low as quoted in this article? It's less than 70% of the US figure.

NYC1K

Fire employees in France?? Apparently you have not had the PAINFUL experience of employing people in Europe (especially France and Germany). UA will find it extremely difficult to do that unless they pay onerous severance packages (usually 4 to 5 months pay and UA most notify the employess 4 weeks before even taking that action).

I would rather set up shop in planet mars before setting one up in France/Denmark/Sweden/Germany. U.K has wised up and it's moving closer to the U.S philosophy of employer/employee labor laws.

thegingerman

Yup, read an anecdote about a small employer who employed a delivery driver who was driving drunk ON THE JOB. Employer had to set up a hearing, wait 3 months, then ask permission of some agency whether he could fire the guy. Had to pay him the entire time as well, even though he couldn't let the guy work (for obvious reasons.)

hans

Back to the original question - does anyone anticipate any disruption or impact on UAL Paris travel, particularly over the next three weeks?