Copilot jumps out
Feb 2, 2006, 6:14 pm
#106
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Originally Posted by flyinbob
... Ignoring the name calling some of this thread has become, I would ask why this would be serious enough for someone to "report" the pilot? I hope you can see this from the passenger point of view, that it gets incredibly frustrating every time we sit and wait and wait and wait for someone to open the door. Whatever the reason - cutbacks, unfair executives, whatever - this pilot did what most of us can only dream of. He said screw the regulations, I'm going to do something for the passengers. To some of us, who too often face the "by the book" matrons, this type of act was long overdue and too rarely seen, and the pilot should be awarded and complimented.
So a simple question. Do you really think the "safety" violations were so outrageous versus that actual risk to passengers as to warrant reporting this pilot?
So a simple question. Do you really think the "safety" violations were so outrageous versus that actual risk to passengers as to warrant reporting this pilot?
Feb 2, 2006, 6:28 pm
#107
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Originally Posted by SFFlyman
So I am to assume from your post that accidents do not happen on the ground? Plenty of trucks and other aircraft have had ground collisions. IMHO, your post suggests that rules for safety should be disregarded based on probability of an accident occurring? Unless you can prove your statistical analysis in some form based on scientific evidence, please do not call my analysis ludicrous.
Feb 2, 2006, 6:33 pm
#108
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Originally Posted by Tiojelly
... I certainly also would blame the action had something gone terribly wrong. ...
Imagine if the OP had ended like this: "... and after he jumped, he broke his ankle when he hit the ground. Plus, a baggage truck almost hit him."
What would the ensuing reponses here have been like then?
My guess is they would be something like this:
"What an idiot! How could he do something so stupid?"
"He deserved it!"
"And they let him fly UA's planes?!?!"
"I hope they fire him for stupidity!"
"Now watch -- he'll probably sue, even though he brought it on himself. I have no sympathy."
Feb 2, 2006, 6:50 pm
#109
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What would a baggage truck be doing on the wrong side of the plane? 
Feb 2, 2006, 7:01 pm
#110
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Originally Posted by JS
What would a baggage truck be doing on the wrong side of the plane?
What would a pilot be doing dangling out of an airplane door?
Sometimes people do stupid things or make mistakes -- baggage truck drivers, and pilots.
When those stupid things are unexpected and are done in a busy area with dangerous moving equipment around, bad things sometimes happen.
Which is just one idea why it is not a good idea to do stupid things others in the area might not expect.
Last edited by Bear96; Feb 2, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Feb 2, 2006, 7:14 pm
#111
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Originally Posted by Bear96
I am not sure if you understand what is included in the excluded in the FOM and FARs, and what their purpose is.
I have an excellent idea of what that means legally. As such, all of this "somebody will be fired" stuff is just a lot of hot air--if no FARs were violated (or, by extension, if the FOM was not violated) the guy will not be fired. Might have a chat with his CP, but that's where it will end.
Again I ask--any wagers?
OK, too extreme. How about this. You are settled in your F seat. Can the Captain claim "Captain's authority" and make you change seats with his buddy who happens to be back in E- in a middle seat? Is there a FOM section addressing this?
Or -- perhaps best yet, and a perennial favorite topic here on FT -- Channel 9! I love all the support here for "Captain's authority." Y'all are all for it -- unless it leads to Channel 9 being turned off. Then we hear the wails from some about how a Captain who doesn't have Channel 9 on shows poor judgment and is unfit for duty. But it's OK to jump from an aircraft door??? 
Lowering oneself from the door of a standing aircraft with the brakes set and the engines off (especially if one is sitting there for a long period of time) is probably the best way to alleviate an operational and customer service problem.
I'm pretty much done with this thread until somebody with a copy of the FOM that the pilot's at UA carry points out where that (or a FAR) was violated. Idle speculation from the folks who work the back of the plane (and are not qualified to operate anything but the exits) as opposed to the pilots (who are, among other things, type rated and line checked on the aircraft) is just that--idle speculation.
Feb 2, 2006, 7:18 pm
#112
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Originally Posted by SFFlyman
This is a first. On my return from LAX to SFO, we arrived at SFO about 10 mins early and at a different gate than the one originally scheduled. As a result, there was no one to operate the jetbridge, and the pilot was not having any luck finding someone to come meet the plane. We waited around 10 minutes. The copilot then took it upon himself to 1) open the door while it was still armed, 2) lower himself out the door and then drop himself to the pavement below (we were on a 737), 3) and then proceeded back up into the airport to find someone. After about another 5 minutes, someone finally showed up to operate the jetbridge. The flight attendant was having a fit over the obvious breakdown of procedures. I wondered to myself what would happen to the copilot, since the pilot was just standing there smiling at this and didn't seemed to be concerned. What kind of leeway does the crew have in a non-emergency situation?
He probably had the runs and couldn't get to the john. I would have jumped too if i had the runs..
Feb 2, 2006, 7:19 pm
#113
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Originally Posted by ClueByFour
If he did it, he could do it under the FAR. Now, I fully expect that by doing so, it would probably result in a complaint by me to UA, compensation for more than the cost of the F seat, and at least a spanking from the pilot's base Chief Pilot.
He had the "authority," right?
Feb 2, 2006, 7:20 pm
#114
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Originally Posted by skchin
He probably had the runs and couldn't get to the john. I would have jumped too if i had the runs..
My guess is he was a commuter trying to get his flight home.
Feb 2, 2006, 7:26 pm
#115
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Originally Posted by Fly
It's too bad that you have decided to bash me instead of considering the safety violations that occured.
Perhaps you could all set up a little trust fund for the Captain and his Boy Wonder to get them through the winter now that they are unemployed.
(fyi - Did the Captain say to the f/a, "this is a direct order"? NO??? Then the flight attendant was responsible for that door and everything pertaining to it. Anything less, and he'd be up for termination.)
Feb 2, 2006, 7:44 pm
#116
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Originally Posted by JS
Safety rules *are* based on the probability of an accident occuring. Otherwise, flying would be illegal since it's possible to crash no matter what you do.
Feb 2, 2006, 8:13 pm
#117
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Originally Posted by Bear96
But ... for what?
He had the "authority," right?
He had the "authority," right?
The difference is that if an F/A reports this incident, he/she/it won't be due any compensation--as there is very little to be gained by appeasing the F/A in this case. F/As are easily replaceable. High revenue customers, however, are not.
Feb 2, 2006, 9:46 pm
#118
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Originally Posted by JS
The probability of there being an evacuation while the plane is sitting still at the gate with the engines off such that the rear doors are unusable for egress is IMHO the same as that of a meteor striking a plane in flight (one of the theories behind TWA 800, btw).
Shall we ban all flights until we can figure out how to defend airplanes from stray meteors?
It's ludricrous to be worried about infintesimally small risks like meteors or one unarmed door of an immobile, gate-arrived 737.
Shall we ban all flights until we can figure out how to defend airplanes from stray meteors?
It's ludricrous to be worried about infintesimally small risks like meteors or one unarmed door of an immobile, gate-arrived 737.
Inter Canadien flight 668 from Montreal, a Fokker F-28 MK 1000, parked at boarding gate 3 of Jean Lesage International Airport, Quebec City. The attendant opened the forward baggage compartment and saw thick white smoke and reddish flames coming out of the compartment. He immediately closed the door and alerted the crew. The pilot-in-command immediately ordered the evacuation of the aircraft and told the co-pilot to notify emergency services.
The passengers were evacuated rapidly via the airstair at the left forward door and the evacuation slide at the right forward door.
The passengers were evacuated rapidly via the airstair at the left forward door and the evacuation slide at the right forward door.
That would have gone real well if the stupid copilot was on the tarmac, and there was no way to evacuate through one of the doors.
Honestly, I can't believe how many people on this board are willing to excuse his actions. Flight crews that like to cut corners get people killed. Flight crews that follow procedures have long, uneventful careers. But lots of people on this board are angry with flight attendants for "telling" on him? This isn't junior high, and he wasn't chewing gum in class.
Feb 2, 2006, 11:26 pm
#119
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Originally Posted by murphy
[url]Honestly, I can't believe how many people on this board are willing to excuse his actions. Flight crews that like to cut corners get people killed. Flight crews that follow procedures have long, uneventful careers. But lots of people on this board are angry with flight attendants for "telling" on him? This isn't junior high, and he wasn't chewing gum in class.
--A lot of people really get into "CSIing" and arm-chair quarterbacking an incident that was told, after-the-fact, by the OP--one eye witness. In other words, we get one side of the story, a pi$$ing match ensues among the posters (pax vs flight attendants--one had a hissy fit with her feelings hurt and left the board, evidently), and two pilots get ratted out (suposedly pink slipped).
--This whole incident, if descibed accurately, probably warrants nothing more than an a$$ chewing followed up by a pat on the back for accomplishing the mission.
--I just find it absolutely astonishing that people are posting old photos of 737s with airstairs and doing the geometry of how far a 6'2'' pilot has to jump in order to avoid twisting his ankles in dress shoes.
--I actually read the FAR Part 121 regs. Won't bore you with the details, they can be interpreted in so many different ways. Everything hinges on the definition of "operation". Bottom line--one would have an up-hill battle proving that even one FAR has been violated.
--If in fact someone from United took this post, did the research, and ratted out the pilots, then I think that's pretty low and reeks of "hall monitor" BS. I just hope the pilots get their due process.
If nothing else, the entertainment and melodrama of this post has been brilliant.
Feb 2, 2006, 11:33 pm
#120
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Originally Posted by murphy
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...2/a95q0232.asp
That would have gone real well if the stupid copilot was on the tarmac, and there was no way to evacuate through one of the doors.
Honestly, I can't believe how many people on this board are willing to excuse his actions. Flight crews that like to cut corners get people killed. Flight crews that follow procedures have long, uneventful careers. But lots of people on this board are angry with flight attendants for "telling" on him? This isn't junior high, and he wasn't chewing gum in class.
That would have gone real well if the stupid copilot was on the tarmac, and there was no way to evacuate through one of the doors.
Honestly, I can't believe how many people on this board are willing to excuse his actions. Flight crews that like to cut corners get people killed. Flight crews that follow procedures have long, uneventful careers. But lots of people on this board are angry with flight attendants for "telling" on him? This isn't junior high, and he wasn't chewing gum in class.
As I recall you can activate the slides manually with the door open. Anyone know if that is possible on the 737? If not, that would seem to me to be a bigger problem, since all the doors are disarmed before the main door opens. So any of those doomsday scenarios that have been presented here with regard to gate disasters would also apply to every plane on the ground.