Agreed. And it may well be that there's no way to do it, that the market is simply saturated beyond capacity, and that the most expedient route would be for a couple of carriers to close down. But you can forgive UAL for not going that route if they can help it, n'est ce pas?

A marked decline in customer service, in my experience, almost always presages serious trouble at a company. Being firm, consistent, but professional will solve 98% of your problems, and you really don't want the other 2% as customers anyway.

So let me get this straight. A NW first-class seat is worth only the $250 that an elite paid for it, but a UA F seat is worth $3,000? Wow, I had no idea UA's F service was 12 times as good as NW's!

News flash: The UA model is the NW model is the AA model when it comes to domestic air travel. The only difference is that the domestic upgrade potential is slightly more limited on UA vs. NW/CO. But barely anyone, on any US carrier, pays full F to get there.

Personally, I'd love to see an airline try to price their domestic F competitively (maybe 1.5x full Y?) and reduce the upgrade and 'Employee Class' mentality. AA's policy of auto-upgrades for elites on Y/B tickets is a great start.

But don't pretend that UA elites are all thieves who are trying to get a cherished F seat for nothing. They made the rules; we're trying to play by them. The airlines can change the rules in an effort to get their desired revenue mix at any time.

Is there a little bit too much of an 'entitlement mentality' on FT? Probably. But to argue that it equates to 'stealing' is as ludicrous as suggesting that anyone who doesn't pay MSRP for a new car is 'stealing' from the dealer.

Mook

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The future of US domestic air travel:
"Please watch your head as you exit the aircraft."

[This message has been edited by Mook (edited 02-04-2003).]

You're right; it's not an excuse.

As opposed to all the ATSB, SFH, etc. whining from UA? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Then they shouldn't offer it at that price...but wait, isn't that the rate set by the market?

By your reasoning, it seems UA should be the one to suck it up in the face of reality.

You're annoyed because people are complaining when UA isn't holding up its end of a voluntary contract? It's probably a wonderful thing you're not in the judiciary, then.

I love this oft floated "But it's the market!" argument. Yes indeed it is, but not in the way you think.

The argument you presented is perfectly valid if, upon UA changing a policy or rule, you switch to another carrier, and begone. United will have decided that they don't want a customer of category X and that'll be that.

But the funny part is, there's always the people who complain, and DON'T leave UA, screaming about the market. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

If it's "the market", switch and stop complaining!

Well, it could be said United is responding "to the market" by raising mileage upgrade redemptions by 5000 miles and requiring H fares or higher on international SWUs, while leaving award ticket redemption levels unchanged.

They are making it more difficult to upgrade "cheap" fares, whilst not making it more difficult for those who have flown a great deal (regardless of fare) from exchanging those earned miles for a free ticket.

With the new 30K domestic R/T mileage redemption to upgrade a cheap Coach ticket to First, you might as well cash in an extra 10K miles and get a First Class Saver Award ticket (if your travel is flexible enough).

Even on international, 60K miles are needed to upgrade an H fare from Coach to Business, while 90K will get you an award ticket in Business - including Star Alliance partners whom many FTers feel offers a better product than United.

[This message has been edited by SEA_Tigger (edited 02-04-2003).]

Oh, is there a "no whining" clause in the contract of carriage for certain fare classes? If not, then UA needs to either live up to their obligations, regardless of the fare paid, rewrite the rules, or increase the pricing for the fares in question.

No doubt if they could have done the latter they would have already done so. Ergo my comment that that's the market price.

As for shopping around airlines rather than simply complaining, I am doing just that. After reading the UA board for awhile, though, I think I'll continue looking elsewhere.

Your basic premise is fallacious. Business class does NOT "normally" cost thousands of dollars. People paying thousands of dollars for business-class seats are more the exception than the rule. Relatively few full-fare business-class tickets are sold by any airline. Most people sitting in the front cabin(s) are on upgrades or employees. Reserving those seats for the most frequent flyers makes as much sense as anything else; someone has to sit there, and there aren't enough paying customers to go around!

Bruce

I don't see how UA isn't living up to their obligations. The original poster mentioned UA's current stance - If you want to use a coupon/certificate, it must be on a published fare an agent can access. That is the rule. They're living up to it.

Neat.

You might want to change that to any US airline. Otherwise, I invite you to look at SQ, LH, or any other choice carrier to see just how many people up front are paying. You'll be surprised.

Amen.

Approximately eight percent of US domestic F seats in 2001 (the latest year for which I have seen data) were filled by paid F passengers.

On many international flag carriers, that figure is closer to 80%, and sometimes even higher (SQ, anyone)?

Yet the airline executives continue to insist, loudly and forcefully, that the current pricing model is not broken. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

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The future of US domestic air travel:
"Please watch your head as you exit the aircraft."

Yes, I knew that and should have been more precise!

Bruce

Even worse, I had a $40 credit on United that I received after they reduced the fare on previously purchased ticket. Like the coupons, all such United credits must be booked through live agents (even more difficult due to elimination of city ticket offices) but the lowest fares are ALWAYS $80-100 higher than those available on the internet. Contrast this policy to southwest, which provides electronic ticket credits that can be used to book any internet fare.

I have been a United premier on and off since 1988, but I will soon be taking my business elsewhere until they figure out how to take better care of their customers.

Or NW. It is notoriously difficult to get mileage upgrades or award seats in international business class on NW. Yet NW's biz class is full or almost full on all my flights. Obviously, a lot of people are paying C and J fares.

Hey Rudy,
One need only look at UA's partner in the "chapter 22 Alliance" US to see the appropriate way to conduct yourself during the economic bloodbath they have taken. Front line service is as good or better than it was BEFORE the BK filing. So based on personal observation of and average of 10 segments per month on US, I think they serve as the benchmark of how to conduct yourself in times of crisis. Times of crisis do not build character, CRISIS REVEALS CHARACTER and from many of the posts here it appears that many UA employees have revealed their character and been found lacking.

As for your whining comments. ANY Good business person will ALWAYS try to negotiate the best deal he/she can for themselves or their company. What you view as whining is merely trying to preserve the hard won perks we recieve for the time spend away from home. I am not looking for sympathy, I TOOK the job I have so time away is MY FAULT!

I would remind you that the airlines started the FF programs not the PAX. The airlines also set the fares. If UA can't make money at $266.00 RT, PHL to GRR, then why publish the fare? If UA management wants to know why they are in their current situation they need only find a mirror to view the responsible party.

BTW it's not my job as a PAX to worry one wit about your profits. I think that job is taken by Mr. Tilton and the UA BOD



[This message has been edited by PineyBob (edited 02-05-2003).]

Going back to the first post of this thread...

Just because there are only middle seats left on the seat map does not mean you are guaranteed to be sitting in a middle seat on the plane.

If it's more than a day before the flight, you won't see the last six rows at all. The day before (or 24 hours before, something like that), the last six rows open up for assignment.

Furthermore, with no-shows, you may be able to get a better seat at the gate.


Changing airlines just because of the advance seat assignment map is overkill. The same thing will happen with JetBlue or any airline (except Southwest, which doesn't have advanced seat assignments).

[This message has been edited by JS (edited 02-06-2003).]

As for the only middle seats left scenario....

If you have status and pull up the ual.com seating chart, or telephone 72 or 24 hours before departure, chances are decent that somebody got upgraded and a e+ seat opened up.