Even if UAL pilots and F/A's wanted to work for the new airline.....
Feb 1, 2003, 10:48 pm
#1
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Even if UAL pilots and F/A's wanted to work for the new airline.....
Just wondering - even if UAL pilots and flight attendants wanted to work for this new-name smaller airline that UAL is proposing, would an offer even be made to them?
Seems to me the new start-up would be leary about hiring a lot of very angry and disgruntled former United employees.
Seems to me the new start-up would be leary about hiring a lot of very angry and disgruntled former United employees.
Feb 1, 2003, 11:04 pm
#2
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 3,682
I don't agree. UA has a huge majority of very experienced, qualified employees-FAs, pilots, mechanics-all positions.
UA management and employees have bet on a model that didn't work. Fact is, management will have to significantly change the business plan.
And the employees will too. Sorry folks, those short months with 250k paydays, unlimited medical, big retirement, etc., are gone. Long gone. Not because I say so or because you don't deserve it. But because the market just won't pay for it.
Some will whine forever about "the cuts we've already absorbed". But for those who say that that was yesterday, and today is different, there will certainly be a place. And I look forward to flying with them.
UA management and employees have bet on a model that didn't work. Fact is, management will have to significantly change the business plan.
And the employees will too. Sorry folks, those short months with 250k paydays, unlimited medical, big retirement, etc., are gone. Long gone. Not because I say so or because you don't deserve it. But because the market just won't pay for it.
Some will whine forever about "the cuts we've already absorbed". But for those who say that that was yesterday, and today is different, there will certainly be a place. And I look forward to flying with them.
Feb 1, 2003, 11:34 pm
#3
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SFO
Posts: 1,045
Some years ago, Britannia Jeans (a then subsidiary of Levi's) decided to relocate their offices from Northern California to Seattle. All staffers were told that they would be terminated but were free to apply for their old jobs up North. They would, however, have to compete with any and all "qualified" applicants and they would have to do it on their own dime. Interviews were held in Seattle.
Feb 1, 2003, 11:43 pm
#4
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: memphis, Tn USA
Posts: 13
To Mountain Trader,
Your post about 250k salaries and huge retirements apply to a miniscule number of employees. I.E. senior pilots to be exact. Oh and of course let us never bash senior executives who make ungodly amounts of money even in a bankrupt situation such as UAL. I can only comment on mechanics as I am one for another major airline in similar straits. The current salary of approx 70,000 annual was just NOW aquired. And only reflects top paid mechanics. The mechanics at UAL and others in trouble have not had any time to enjoy this pay raise after 10 yrs of what can only amount to a pay freeze after a concession for stock which is now worthless. On top of that my airline as well as UAL is closing maint bases and forcing employees to move to other high cost of living areas where even our new and imporved salary could not buy you a shack to live in. My username of flatbroke was chosen for a reason. My mission in life is to dissuade any young person from EVER going to school to be an aircraft mechanic. I suspect pilots children in the future can expect a similar lecture. The traveling public wants full first class type service with a smile for the price of a greyhound bus ticket. When I was in school in the mid 1970's the price of an airline ticket purchased in advance from TUL to LAX was over 400 dollars. I don't know what it is now but I would guess it is about half that. Everything else in this world has gone up in price EXCEPT the airline ticket. So don't complain about bad service or poor schedules because bottom line is we have too much capacity for one and airline employees are constantly being screwed with (hence the bad attitude) so there you have it. Can't have it both ways it is either cheap seats and bad attitude or pay more and get more. P.S. Don't use Jetblue or SWA as an example either. Jetblue employees will tire of gettin gpaide low wages and their new airplanes will require more maint which will hurt their bottom line. I give them 3 yrs more before they have problems. SWA has already had some growing pains with labor issues.
Your post about 250k salaries and huge retirements apply to a miniscule number of employees. I.E. senior pilots to be exact. Oh and of course let us never bash senior executives who make ungodly amounts of money even in a bankrupt situation such as UAL. I can only comment on mechanics as I am one for another major airline in similar straits. The current salary of approx 70,000 annual was just NOW aquired. And only reflects top paid mechanics. The mechanics at UAL and others in trouble have not had any time to enjoy this pay raise after 10 yrs of what can only amount to a pay freeze after a concession for stock which is now worthless. On top of that my airline as well as UAL is closing maint bases and forcing employees to move to other high cost of living areas where even our new and imporved salary could not buy you a shack to live in. My username of flatbroke was chosen for a reason. My mission in life is to dissuade any young person from EVER going to school to be an aircraft mechanic. I suspect pilots children in the future can expect a similar lecture. The traveling public wants full first class type service with a smile for the price of a greyhound bus ticket. When I was in school in the mid 1970's the price of an airline ticket purchased in advance from TUL to LAX was over 400 dollars. I don't know what it is now but I would guess it is about half that. Everything else in this world has gone up in price EXCEPT the airline ticket. So don't complain about bad service or poor schedules because bottom line is we have too much capacity for one and airline employees are constantly being screwed with (hence the bad attitude) so there you have it. Can't have it both ways it is either cheap seats and bad attitude or pay more and get more. P.S. Don't use Jetblue or SWA as an example either. Jetblue employees will tire of gettin gpaide low wages and their new airplanes will require more maint which will hurt their bottom line. I give them 3 yrs more before they have problems. SWA has already had some growing pains with labor issues.
Feb 2, 2003, 9:06 am
#5
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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I would imagine UA would extend offers of employment to its own people first. If for no other reason, it *might* help with the unions. Yes, the people would be paid less for doing the same work more often, but they would still have a job, still pay union dues, and the union would have a voice (unless UA plans to make the new airline non-union - I admit I don't recall if that was discussed or not).
Also, UA people know UA. They may not like UA all that much, but I expect "integration" into the new airline would be easier with existing UA (or ex-UA) people than, say, hiring American. From a job-function standpoint, any 737 pilot can fly a 737, regardless of what airline they were an employee of. But culturally, it may be easier for a UA employee to fit in.
But this new airline will have a *very* large labor pool to choose from, I would imagine, considering how many tens of thousands of folks have been laid off since 9/11.
Also, UA people know UA. They may not like UA all that much, but I expect "integration" into the new airline would be easier with existing UA (or ex-UA) people than, say, hiring American. From a job-function standpoint, any 737 pilot can fly a 737, regardless of what airline they were an employee of. But culturally, it may be easier for a UA employee to fit in.
But this new airline will have a *very* large labor pool to choose from, I would imagine, considering how many tens of thousands of folks have been laid off since 9/11.
Feb 2, 2003, 9:27 am
#6
Join Date: Nov 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MrMillion:
Some years ago, Britannia Jeans (a then subsidiary of Levi's) decided to relocate their offices from Northern California to Seattle. All staffers were told that they would be terminated but were free to apply for their old jobs up North. They would, however, have to compete with any and all "qualified" applicants and they would have to do it on their own dime. Interviews were held in Seattle.</font>
Some years ago, Britannia Jeans (a then subsidiary of Levi's) decided to relocate their offices from Northern California to Seattle. All staffers were told that they would be terminated but were free to apply for their old jobs up North. They would, however, have to compete with any and all "qualified" applicants and they would have to do it on their own dime. Interviews were held in Seattle.</font>
Feb 3, 2003, 4:46 am
#7
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 3,682
Flatbroke-
I am truly sorry for your personal financial situation. I was involved in the oil business in the 1980s and I know first-hand the pain that comes when one's chosen industry unravels. Unlike the oil business then, many airline employees will still have productive careers, but not the same ones they planned for.
I think in your disappointment you've overlooked a few points. Most industries that have deregulated have seen a big drop in price per unit as the formerly "luxury item" becomes available to the masses and commoditized. The glaring example (besides air travel) is long-distance telephone calls. The pattern is the same-deregulation allows new entrants, capacity goes up, prices go down, the masses come to buy and quality falls off as only price wars bring in large numbers of customers. The company involved changes too-fat margins become razor-thin as volume skyrockets. The well-managed firms do well, while others go out of business.
Two differences I see for the major airlines. First, they've missed the boat on the revenue side in milking the business traveler for all they can get and filling the rest of the plane with cheap, lousy seats. The seats up front aren't worth paying for and, as you point out, you can't make money selling super cheap tickets, with free trips for FF thrown in. But before you blame "management", remember that since 1993, UA unions have owned a big piece of UA, and had a lot to say about how the company was run. Remember the "owner-employee" tag? Well, they were.
The other difference with the airlines is the employee cost structure. I won't repeat all the hundreds of posts from bitter employees here, but as I said in my first post, whatever the "right pay" might be, the only pay you get in the long run is what someone is willing to pay you.
Our capitalist system is the best in the world. But it has brutal consequences, which is why some airline employees who work hard are out of work or losing pay amd benefits, and The Rolling Stones bring in $3 million or $4 million for a two hour concert.
I am truly sorry for your personal financial situation. I was involved in the oil business in the 1980s and I know first-hand the pain that comes when one's chosen industry unravels. Unlike the oil business then, many airline employees will still have productive careers, but not the same ones they planned for.
I think in your disappointment you've overlooked a few points. Most industries that have deregulated have seen a big drop in price per unit as the formerly "luxury item" becomes available to the masses and commoditized. The glaring example (besides air travel) is long-distance telephone calls. The pattern is the same-deregulation allows new entrants, capacity goes up, prices go down, the masses come to buy and quality falls off as only price wars bring in large numbers of customers. The company involved changes too-fat margins become razor-thin as volume skyrockets. The well-managed firms do well, while others go out of business.
Two differences I see for the major airlines. First, they've missed the boat on the revenue side in milking the business traveler for all they can get and filling the rest of the plane with cheap, lousy seats. The seats up front aren't worth paying for and, as you point out, you can't make money selling super cheap tickets, with free trips for FF thrown in. But before you blame "management", remember that since 1993, UA unions have owned a big piece of UA, and had a lot to say about how the company was run. Remember the "owner-employee" tag? Well, they were.
The other difference with the airlines is the employee cost structure. I won't repeat all the hundreds of posts from bitter employees here, but as I said in my first post, whatever the "right pay" might be, the only pay you get in the long run is what someone is willing to pay you.
Our capitalist system is the best in the world. But it has brutal consequences, which is why some airline employees who work hard are out of work or losing pay amd benefits, and The Rolling Stones bring in $3 million or $4 million for a two hour concert.
Feb 4, 2003, 1:02 am
#8
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: memphis, Tn USA
Posts: 13
To Mountain Trader,
I guess I can't argue your point.....
I guess I can't argue your point.....