weero

Yes ... but each time that meant buzzing the cabin for an MD who then did the actual work. So that might not have been representative.

warreng24

Good piece of advice AD!

If I was a customer service person, reading a letter to complain that the FA was sleeping and it was jeapordizing the passengers safety, I would probably throw the letter out unless the author mentioned that the author (or concerned party) attempted to wake the FA or identify the situation to another FA.

If you're really concerned about your safety, you should act upon it yourself at the time of the incident (and not write about it in a letter after the fact)!

RoyalFlush

+1

LarryJ

I have a copy of such a disciplinary letter that I received a number of years ago. The Chief Pilot who signed it is still employed and still a Chief Pilot for the same airline.

The situation was that I was scheduled to be released from duty at about 12:30am. They were short of crews and notified me when I landed (at 12:30am) that they wanted me to stay on-duty until about 10:00am and fly an overnight trip from a mid-Atlantic state to New Mexico. I told them that I was not sufficiently rested to fly such a long trip but I could fly a shorter one that ended by 6am or 7am. No shorter trip was available and the company rest facility (recliner room) was already full so I could not get a nap prior to the next trip's report time (about 2.5 hours later). I told them that I was not fit for the New Mexico trip and received the letter via certified mail a few days later.

In my 20-year airline career, I've called in fatigued two other times. Both involved irregular operations which significantly extended the planned duty period (for which I had been adequately rested). In both cases I was transferred up the management chain of command from crew scheduler to manager to chief pilot to system chief pilot with each trying to talk me into taking the flight.

ryan182

Did you do something about it? I would guess there has to be a whistlerblower department at FAA to report this type of behavior. If companies are pushing pilots to fly fatigued I would like to think its something they would take seriously, and if not I'd also bet some media outlets would take this and run with it. Also it would seem that the FAA regulations would protect you in this case:
Especially if as you point out its a rare occurrence (3 times in 20 years) and obviously not a reoccurring issue. Now if you just got mad, well....you're either part of the solution or the problem.

United737522

You'd be surprised. This happens at every regional. I don't know about mainline, as all the guys I know who work mainline don't complain about the stuff I've seen. Crew scheduling will push pilots to fly even if it's beyond their legal limit. (Not to mention nearly every time it's outside of the contract...) Ultimately it is the pilots' responsibility to say no. The union will stand behind their pilots.

ryan182

There is actually a whistler blower program for safety issues (and was pretty darn easy to find): http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/whistleblower/

If someone is being pushed to fly when they don't feel its safe, I wouldn't rely simply on the union to stand behind you, the union can't do much, the FAA can. So can public pressure (media) make companies think twice about doing things that are unsafe and illegal. If no ones complaining to those that can actually do something about the problem is it really a shock that the problem continues?

able

The FAA won't do Jack.

In their opinion if the pilot declined to fly the flight because he/she was fatigued the issue is now closed. No regulations were broken and the FAA will not get involved in internal airline matters such as discipline.

I have had the FAA on the phone several times. It is a complete and total waste of time. You are on your own.

ryan182

If, as is contended, this is a common practice then there's probably lots of people who feel the same way. If the FAA safety department got a letter or calls from a large number of pilots saying carrier X is using the threat of disciplinary action to get pilots to fly when they are fatigued they wouldn't be able to ignore it, and if they didn't send it to the media. If it made a big news story they really can't ignore it.

able

They can easily ignore it and they will continue to do so.

This is not nearly as sexy a problem as pilots flying past their destination.

Any airline employees who complain will simply be labeled as "disgruntled" and the general population, who know how evil unionized employees are, will buy it completely. Problem solved.

ryan182

Not "sexy", I don't think so especially when a number of crashes in the past were tied to fatigue, one could make quite a sexy story out of it.

When your gripe is about how much someone else gets paid or your pay etc. Yeah you will probably get that response from many (myself included). If its about things that can and have caused plane crashes, I don't think it would get the same response. My present company our travel policy is pretty flexible but at my last company which was very much on the "cheapest fare" idea one of the few reason accepted for not choosing a flight was if you had good reason to think the carrier wasn't safe. I can't see new coverage about an airline forcing pilots to fly fatigued not making people think its less safe than other options.

aluminumdriver

Actually, it is the union that protects the pilot in fatigue cases, not the FAA. The FAA has a horrible history with overlooking the day to day operations of the airlines and following up on crew complaints. Look at all the stories of POI inspectors overlooking maintenance issues since they are buddy buddy with the airline they're watching. The FAA only mandates 8 hours off between flights. Take debrief, eating, showering, sleep, and transportation to/from the airport, that gives a pilot maybe 5 hours of sleep. It is the union that has bargained for safer rest rules and hours. In the case of United, our union mandates a minimum of 9 hours behind the door of our hotel room to ensure we get at least 8 hrs of rest, more if we fly longer hours, start earlier in the day, fly an all-nighter, or have a very long duty day.

At United, the "Union" negotiated a letter with senior management where they would not punish pilots for calling in fatigued, something that we never had before. In the past, if you were too fatigued to fly, you either flew tired, or you called in sick. Most pilots just call in sick if they reach that fatigued point verse risk termination with their employer. That Fatigue Letter was huge in letting pilots call off a trip if they were fatigued with no retribution.

That is why it is such a big deal that ALPA, the govt, and the airlines are working on new fatigue mitigation laws and regulations right now to move it into the 21st century. Right now we are awaiting a FAA interpretation on whether a pilot can fly for 18 hours all-night, get home and have the crew scheduler continuing to call them during their post trip rest to give them another trip and whether that is interrupting their FAA required rest. It has been 2 years now and we are still awaiting an answer from the FAA on whether the company calling and waking a pilot numerous times during their sleep is actually "interrupting" their rest. Doesn't appear to be high on their to-do list. Here are couple stories of how pilots who call in sick or fatigued can risk their jobs at some airlines.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ress=367x13350

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/publi...9/070634-1.htm

tmm1012

In skimming through the responses, I didn't happen to notice this point being brought up: if the FA had actually dozed off, and IF something were to go wrong, it's not like he/she was in a comatose/passed out state from being drunk. He/she dozed off and would have certainly been awakened if something happened. Would the reaction time between being startled asleep vs. being startled while awake really be that big of a deal? The biggest thing that could probably go wrong on the ground would be a collision, and let's be honest, the 1.5 seconds that it'd take to wake up from having dozed off for a few minutes, regain your senses, and take action are not gonna be the difference between a safe evacuation and every passenger dying. I think rjm656s put it best:

lance1713

Was some gal/guy sitting across from her who wouldn't stop talking?

ORDUnitedMetal

Negative. She was in the jump seat facing the cabin in the small RJ. It wasn't too long a flight (PIT-IAD) 40 min at best.