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A report on Gender-based discrimination on UA flight from TLV

A report on Gender-based discrimination on UA flight from TLV

Old Aug 15, 2023, 9:54 am
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A report on Gender-based discrimination on UA flight from TLV

Tweet (in Hebrew)
suggests that a woman was asked to move from her spot due to a demand by fellow passengers (due to religious reasons). Allegedly, the air hostess demanded that the passenger will switch places, blaming the passenger for any possible delays.

I guess that after landing we will get more information (e.g., flight number, crew, official UA statement, though ties, I suspect it's the noon TLV-EWR flight).

BTW1 - AFAIK this is illegal under Israeli law. I guess it is also under US transportation regulations and laws.
BTW2 - This is not true Judaism to demand others to move because of your beliefs (yes, I know).
BTW3 - This is not an anti-Semitic post. This is a report on someone (the woman is a reporter, I guess she knows that if her claims are going to be proven wrong, there will be hell to pay) being asked to move due to her gender.
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Last edited by WineCountryUA; Aug 15, 2023 at 10:21 am Reason: Let's stick to the UA issue and not go OMNI/PR
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 10:43 am
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An Israeli journalist has accused airline staff of trying to force her to move seats to accommodate Charedi passengers on a flight from Israel to New York.

Neria Kraus, a US-based Israeli TV reporter said that she was repeatedly asked to move by male strictly Orthodox passengers, and when she refused, was blamed by cabin crew for potentially delaying the flight.

The flight, United Airlines flight 85 departed Ben Gurion international airport in Tel Aviv 28 minutes behind schedule at 12:30 PM and is scheduled to arrive at Newark International Airport in New Jersey at 4:30 PM local time.
<snip>
Kraus also alleged that the female flight attendant said that the plane might have to stop in Egypt because she refused to change seats.

She also accused the airline of discriminating against her on the basis of her gender. She told Haaretz: I refused to move because Im a woman. This is pure discrimination.

Kraus added that the flight attendant allegedly said: "This flight will not take off because of you, youre the reason why this flight will not take off. Because of you, they will land in Egypt,


https://www.thejc.com/news/world/isr...XV1mABmESULyzJ
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 11:36 am
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No idea what the situation is but none of the people in her photo appear to be Charedim.

IMO, if those 4 all were traveling in a group and requested not to sit next to a female for religious reasons, it is their right. Does she think it makes more sense to up 4 people and try and find them different seats rather than moving 1 singular person? She has a right to want to not move, but they are also equally entitled to their religious beliefs. She is making a tremendous deal about her rights while denying them their rights. Both rights are protected under Israeli law and they are legally allowed to request the change due to her gender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah for more information on why the men cannot sit next to a woman

Last edited by Schnit; Aug 15, 2023 at 11:41 am Reason: typo
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 11:49 am
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Originally Posted by Schnit
No idea what the situation is but none of the people in her photo appear to be Charedim.

IMO, if those 4 all were traveling in a group and requested not to sit next to a female for religious reasons, it is their right. Does she think it makes more sense to up 4 people and try and find them different seats rather than moving 1 singular person? She has a right to want to not move, but they are also equally entitled to their religious beliefs. She is making a tremendous deal about her rights while denying them their rights. Both rights are protected under Israeli law and they are legally allowed to request the change due to her gender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah for more information on why the men cannot sit next to a woman
please reference the Israeli law that entitles gender discrimination. Ill wait.

In a court case in 2017, an Israeli court said that national carrier El Al could no longer require seat changes based on gender.

Thanks
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 11:53 am
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Originally Posted by Schnit
IMO, if those 4 all were traveling in a group and requested not to sit next to a female for religious reasons, it is their right.
Maybe in Israel it is a right, but not in the US. Shame on the UA FA for asking the woman to move, and kudos for her refusal to move.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 11:58 am
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Originally Posted by vicarious_MR'er;[url=tel:35499712
35499712]please reference the Israeli law that entitles gender discrimination. Ill wait.

In a court case in 2017, an Israeli court said that national carrier El Al could no longer require seat changes based on gender.

Thanks
Firstly there is never a law that entitles something like that. Please quote me the law that allows someone to not kill someone else. See the flaw in your logic? There are laws about gender being used to affect wages or employment, neither of which is discussed here.

In addition no one said she was required to switch, that she was requested to. If you read my post I mentioned it makes more sense for her to switch than to make 4 people switch. She is welcome to say no, but that means the flight attendant was correct that it caused the delay. [mod edit] I even specifically said "She has a right to want to not move" but that doesnt mean it wont create a delay. [removed OT discussion- mod]

Last edited by l etoile; Aug 15, 2023 at 12:41 pm Reason: Overly personalized comment
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 11:59 am
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Originally Posted by halls120
Maybe in Israel it is a right, but not in the US. Shame on the UA FA for asking the woman to move, and kudos for her refusal to move.
I don't see anything wrong with "asking" - as in, these guys are raising a big stink, would it be ok to change seats. And I don't see anything wrong with her saying - nope. A line would be crossed with a forced move. If the guys continue to make problems - deplane them.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:00 pm
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Originally Posted by halls120
Maybe in Israel it is a right, but not in the US. ....
Really? In the US people do not have the right to say they dont want to sit next to someone? You absolutely have the right to say "I do not feel comfortable sitting next to this person" in the US.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Schnit
No idea what the situation is but none of the people in her photo appear to be Charedim.

IMO, if those 4 all were traveling in a group and requested not to sit next to a female for religious reasons, it is their right. Does she think it makes more sense to up 4 people and try and find them different seats rather than moving 1 singular person? She has a right to want to not move, but they are also equally entitled to their religious beliefs. She is making a tremendous deal about her rights while denying them their rights. Both rights are protected under Israeli law and they are legally allowed to request the change due to her gender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah for more information on why the men cannot sit next to a woman
Call me an idiot but I don't know much about Judism but I did read the wiki posted on "Negiah" and it seems to forbid "sensual contact". I don't want to digress into a discussion of religion here as it will surely be taken down by FT and probably should.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:19 pm
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Originally Posted by nomad420
Call me an idiot but I don't know much about Judism but I did read the wiki posted on "Negiah" and it seems to forbid "sensual contact". I don't want to digress into a discussion of religion here as it will surely be taken down by FT and probably should.
Its complicated. Its barriers put to up by certain people to avoid issues. For example, could this woman fall asleep on the plane and have her head fall onto the man's shoulder? Could this lead to impure thoughts? Its obviously an extreme case but not not impossible. Charedim and many others prefer these restrictions to avoid such problems.

Last edited by l etoile; Aug 15, 2023 at 12:44 pm
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:26 pm
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Originally Posted by Schnit
Firstly there is never a law that entitles something like that. Please quote me the law that allows someone to not kill someone else. See the flaw in your logic? There are laws about gender being used to affect wages or employment, neither of which is discussed here.

In addition no one said she was required to switch, that she was requested to. If you read my post I mentioned it makes more sense for her to switch than to make 4 people switch. She is welcome to say no, but that means the flight attendant was correct that it caused the delay. [mod edit] I even specifically said "She has a right to want to not move" but that doesnt mean it wont create a delay. When I ride the subway in NYC I have the right to stand in the doorway and prevent the door from closing, but I cannot then be annoyed that people are blaming me for the train delays.
the men insisting that she be moved and their desires be accommodated are the reason for the delay. She wants her seat and (I assume) is fine sitting next to them. They are the ones making a request for a change, but unwilling to change themselves. Pinning the blame on the woman for not moving is incorrect. Just as it would be incorrect to blame a passenger to declines to change seats to allow a family to sit together.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:35 pm
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Originally Posted by drewguy
the men insisting that she be moved and their desires be accommodated are the reason for the delay. She wants her seat and (I assume) is fine sitting next to them. They are the ones making a request for a change, but unwilling to change themselves. Pinning the blame on the woman for not moving is incorrect. Just as it would be incorrect to blame a passenger to declines to change seats to allow a family to sit together.
She is entitled to stay in her seat. But the airline is also allowed to accommodate the men who dont want to sit next to her. Moving 4 people around is a lot more involved than 1 person.

The family is allowed to request to be seated together. If the one person doesnt move, which they are entitled to do, it will take longer to re-arrange the family. It is not incorrect to say his refusal to move caused the delay. Doesn't mean he is wrong or he is incorrect, it just means his refusal to move caused the delay.

In my opinion you are reading more into what was said. Sometimes what the literal answer is the correct one, not everything has a hidden meaning.

Last edited by l etoile; Aug 15, 2023 at 12:45 pm Reason: Removed response to OT comment
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:47 pm
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:47 pm
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Originally Posted by Schnit
Really? In the US people do not have the right to say they dont want to sit next to someone? You absolutely have the right to say "I do not feel comfortable sitting next to this person" in the US.
Sure - and then the burden is on you to remove yourself to somewhere you feel more comfortable. It's not my problem or the FA's problem. If your religion requires separation, then it may mean that you have to give up your first class seat to sit in the last row of economy. That is also your 'right'.
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Old Aug 15, 2023, 12:50 pm
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Originally Posted by chollie
Sure - and then the burden is on you to remove yourself to somewhere you feel more comfortable. It's not my problem or the FA's problem. If your religion requires separation, then it may mean that you have to give up your first class seat to sit in the last row of economy. That is also your 'right'.
I agree 100%. My point is find seats for 4 different people takes longer than a different seat for 1 person. To say the 1 person who was refusing resulted in a delay is not incorrect. Doesn't mean she was in the wrong, just that it was a delay
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