Are You Thankful That You Fly United And Not Southwest Yet?
Dec 27, 2022, 11:49 pm
#61
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
Southwest can't catch a break even when they actually take off
Mid-air fight forces Oakland bound plane to divert back to HNL, employees say (hawaiinewsnow.com)
A reported mid-air fight has turned around a Southwest plane that departed from Honolulu.
Employees told Hawaii News Now a confrontation broke out aboard flight 2050 which was bound for Oakland.
FlightAware’s tracker shows the plane left Honolulu just before 5 p.m. and turned around about 1 hour and 45 minutes later.
The plane is scheduled to be arriving at the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport around 9 p.m.
Mid-air fight forces Oakland bound plane to divert back to HNL, employees say (hawaiinewsnow.com)
A reported mid-air fight has turned around a Southwest plane that departed from Honolulu.
Employees told Hawaii News Now a confrontation broke out aboard flight 2050 which was bound for Oakland.
FlightAware’s tracker shows the plane left Honolulu just before 5 p.m. and turned around about 1 hour and 45 minutes later.
The plane is scheduled to be arriving at the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport around 9 p.m.
Dec 28, 2022, 12:00 am
#62
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Denver, Colorado
Programs: IHG Spire, Hilton Honors Gold, Marriott Titanium, Mileage Plus Gold
Posts: 1,736
Southwest can't catch a break even when they actually take off
Mid-air fight forces Oakland bound plane to divert back to HNL, employees say (hawaiinewsnow.com)
A reported mid-air fight has turned around a Southwest plane that departed from Honolulu.
Employees told Hawaii News Now a confrontation broke out aboard flight 2050 which was bound for Oakland.
FlightAware’s tracker shows the plane left Honolulu just before 5 p.m. and turned around about 1 hour and 45 minutes later.
The plane is scheduled to be arriving at the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport around 9 p.m.
Mid-air fight forces Oakland bound plane to divert back to HNL, employees say (hawaiinewsnow.com)
A reported mid-air fight has turned around a Southwest plane that departed from Honolulu.
Employees told Hawaii News Now a confrontation broke out aboard flight 2050 which was bound for Oakland.
FlightAware’s tracker shows the plane left Honolulu just before 5 p.m. and turned around about 1 hour and 45 minutes later.
The plane is scheduled to be arriving at the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport around 9 p.m.
More of that cheap prosecco please!
Last edited by seat38a; Dec 28, 2022 at 12:06 am
Dec 28, 2022, 12:02 am
#63
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: Hyatt Globalist | Jumpseat Platinum
Posts: 546
There's a number of issues and that does play into it as well.
Weather caused the disruption. I.T. and telco issues have prevented SWA from recovering as quickly as everyone else.
Machines fail in extreme cold. You don't know what will work and what won't or how long it will take to get them working. When temperatures are significantly colder than normal for an area the employees don't know how to deal with it so they are less efficient, don't know how to work the machine in the cold, and many of them can't or don't come to work. All of the airlines delt with these issue.
SWA's I.T. hasn't been updated to keep up with the airline as it has grown is size and complexity. I recently learned that the crew scheduling software apparently doesn't get real-time inputs (or enough inputs?) from the operations software which records delays, cancellations, out/in times, etc. When there are exceptions, they have to be input manually. That may work at a small airline but is unmanageable at this scale with widespread disruptions. This is how they "lost" their crews.
In the old days, it was relatively easy to figure out pilot legality. The new 14 CFR 117 rules for pilots are too complex. There are too many variables. You need a computer to reliably confirm legality. It also means that pilots and flight attendants are scheduled under different rules so you can't treat one full crew as a group.
Crewmembers can't contact the schedulers because the schedulers are overwhelmed. The only way I know to address this is through automation. The difference in the number of schedulers you need to work a wide-spread disruption, compared to what you need during normal ops, is significant. I don't know the multiple but 10x wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe more. You need automation to take care of as much of the schedule repair as possible because it isn't possible to multiply your staff by 10x when a disruption event occurs. Other airlines have significantly more automation in these processes than SWA apparently has but they still don't have enough.
Weather caused the disruption. I.T. and telco issues have prevented SWA from recovering as quickly as everyone else.
Machines fail in extreme cold. You don't know what will work and what won't or how long it will take to get them working. When temperatures are significantly colder than normal for an area the employees don't know how to deal with it so they are less efficient, don't know how to work the machine in the cold, and many of them can't or don't come to work. All of the airlines delt with these issue.
SWA's I.T. hasn't been updated to keep up with the airline as it has grown is size and complexity. I recently learned that the crew scheduling software apparently doesn't get real-time inputs (or enough inputs?) from the operations software which records delays, cancellations, out/in times, etc. When there are exceptions, they have to be input manually. That may work at a small airline but is unmanageable at this scale with widespread disruptions. This is how they "lost" their crews.
In the old days, it was relatively easy to figure out pilot legality. The new 14 CFR 117 rules for pilots are too complex. There are too many variables. You need a computer to reliably confirm legality. It also means that pilots and flight attendants are scheduled under different rules so you can't treat one full crew as a group.
Crewmembers can't contact the schedulers because the schedulers are overwhelmed. The only way I know to address this is through automation. The difference in the number of schedulers you need to work a wide-spread disruption, compared to what you need during normal ops, is significant. I don't know the multiple but 10x wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe more. You need automation to take care of as much of the schedule repair as possible because it isn't possible to multiply your staff by 10x when a disruption event occurs. Other airlines have significantly more automation in these processes than SWA apparently has but they still don't have enough.
Talking to scheduling friends of mine, on IRROP days they are often given OT to pick up extra shifts, but there's still not enough manpower. 10x-15x more manpower is probably about right, not including the hotel desk folks. There's the need to balance the "right now" (inbound crew is late, do we take them off and use field standbys? or delay their next flight 45 minutes?) with the "tomorrow" (that crew that was delayed 45 minutes is now under their minimum rest requirements, do we delay the outbound flight in the morning, or recrew it?) and the "big picture" (those reserves I used to recrew the flight are now close to their monthly maximums). Automation can help, but as we've seen at DL, all it takes is one bad day for the computer system and you have crews sleeping on the floor in the lounge.
Let's be clear, though -- this is not only a WN issue (based on your last sentence, I think we're on the same page here...) as a multi-airline coalition of unions put out a campaign in August alluding to this as a possibility, and asked for an extension on the PSP ban on stock buybacks.
I don't know what it's like on the pilot side of things, but UA Flight Attendant scheduling hold times this past week were measured in hours... and far too many of my colleagues had to "self-help" into hotel rooms (read: procure their own rooms because the company was unreachable)... which means the company had no idea where they were. Flights were delayed due to missing FAs who were still downline from their last trip. UA has certainly invested plenty in the type of software and automation you speak of, especially around the 2018 FA common metal era, but there are some tasks that can only be done by hand, and UA has just over half the personnel doing it in 2022 than they did in 2018. It was one of the facets of our (AFA's) FPS campaign -- failure to staff the crew schedulers appropriately.
Did UA do better than WN? Absolutely. But there is still plenty of room for improvement. I, for one, hope that DL, UA, and AA take this situation as a warning of what happens when you keep racing to the bottom and cut CASM based on perfect flying conditions, leaving them without room for flexibility in case of IRROPS.
P.S. I'm probably preaching to the choir here by quoting you of all people, but I figure the folks around here would appreciate the discussion
Dec 28, 2022, 12:38 am
#64
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: TOA
Programs: HH Diamond, Marriott LTPP/Platinum Premier, Hyatt Lame-ist, UA !K
Posts: 20,061
I'll just add one word that's become a bit too common: schadenfreude.
Actually, I'll add a second word: hubris.
For our fellow travelers on WN, this week is a very, very bad week.
For others on UA, AA, DL, B6 and other airlines, some folks have been also negatively affected when things went pearshaped whether due to MX, WX and other factors.
As LarryJ and fezzington have noted in this very thread, UA's systems were also tested and, in many ways, found lacking. Things are working but with staffing levels where they are right now, it doesn't take much for a cascade of system failures to paralyze an airline.
So, yes, UA, with its many upon many travel waivers and committed employees has made it through fairly well and enabled most of its passengers to get where they needed/wanted to go - but, if you've been reading this forum, quite a few had their holiday plans smashed as well. Unfortunately for most WN travelers, the vast majority have seen it all fall apart.
Hopefully, UA's leadership and teams will identify ways to strengthen and improve its systems as well as realize that there's no substitute for having a capable, well trained and fully staffed employee base when things go south. And to avoid thinking that as things went from bad to worse to horrible over at WN, that those things can't happen to this airline.
And not to have to use the two words initially identified in this post in some future context for UA.
David
Actually, I'll add a second word: hubris.
For our fellow travelers on WN, this week is a very, very bad week.
For others on UA, AA, DL, B6 and other airlines, some folks have been also negatively affected when things went pearshaped whether due to MX, WX and other factors.
As LarryJ and fezzington have noted in this very thread, UA's systems were also tested and, in many ways, found lacking. Things are working but with staffing levels where they are right now, it doesn't take much for a cascade of system failures to paralyze an airline.
So, yes, UA, with its many upon many travel waivers and committed employees has made it through fairly well and enabled most of its passengers to get where they needed/wanted to go - but, if you've been reading this forum, quite a few had their holiday plans smashed as well. Unfortunately for most WN travelers, the vast majority have seen it all fall apart.
Hopefully, UA's leadership and teams will identify ways to strengthen and improve its systems as well as realize that there's no substitute for having a capable, well trained and fully staffed employee base when things go south. And to avoid thinking that as things went from bad to worse to horrible over at WN, that those things can't happen to this airline.
And not to have to use the two words initially identified in this post in some future context for UA.
David
Dec 28, 2022, 1:00 am
#65
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
On travel waivers - I'm going to make an assumption that the Big 3 and Southwest were comparable in waivers. However, in my opinion, UA did a very good job in getting the waivers publicized on the various national news channels better than the other airlines. It seemed like each time I tuned into news the anchor stated UA has issued waivers and is encouraging to fly different times/dates. I didn't hear as much on other airlines.
Dec 28, 2022, 1:34 am
#66
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 4,992
Maybe not for you, individually, or others on FlyerTalk who rely on the reservations line for rebooking and/or already have been given UA options for rebooking since the automated IRROPs engine prioritizes elite status for open seats on the later flights. But your perception of the record and what actually occurs is substantially different, as the over 500k+ invol coupons redeemed so far by OA carriers for travel this year alone paints quite a different picture than you are suggesting. Though the airports do OA rebookings at close to 3x the rate contact centers do, likely because their sole focus is getting passengers on the way, have better insight to OA capacity at their station, can liaison with OA carriers regarding space more readily, and aren't trained on other policies that they then mix pieces together from when doing IRROPs/schedule changes/voluntary changes. But regardless, your claim about the "record" is flat out wrong.
Last edited by zombietooth; Dec 28, 2022 at 1:52 am
Dec 28, 2022, 5:00 am
#67
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DAY
Programs: UA 1K 1MM; Marriott LT Titanium; Amex MR; Chase UR; Hertz PC; Global Entry
Posts: 10,157
There's a number of issues and that does play into it as well.
Weather caused the disruption. I.T. and telco issues have prevented SWA from recovering as quickly as everyone else.
Machines fail in extreme cold. You don't know what will work and what won't or how long it will take to get them working. When temperatures are significantly colder than normal for an area the employees don't know how to deal with it so they are less efficient, don't know how to work the machine in the cold, and many of them can't or don't come to work. All of the airlines delt with these issue.
SWA's I.T. hasn't been updated to keep up with the airline as it has grown is size and complexity. I recently learned that the crew scheduling software apparently doesn't get real-time inputs (or enough inputs?) from the operations software which records delays, cancellations, out/in times, etc. When there are exceptions, they have to be input manually. That may work at a small airline but is unmanageable at this scale with widespread disruptions. This is how they "lost" their crews.
In the old days, it was relatively easy to figure out pilot legality. The new 14 CFR 117 rules for pilots are too complex. There are too many variables. You need a computer to reliably confirm legality. It also means that pilots and flight attendants are scheduled under different rules so you can't treat one full crew as a group.
Crewmembers can't contact the schedulers because the schedulers are overwhelmed. The only way I know to address this is through automation. The difference in the number of schedulers you need to work a wide-spread disruption, compared to what you need during normal ops, is significant. I don't know the multiple but 10x wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe more. You need automation to take care of as much of the schedule repair as possible because it isn't possible to multiply your staff by 10x when a disruption event occurs. Other airlines have significantly more automation in these processes than SWA apparently has but they still don't have enough.
Weather caused the disruption. I.T. and telco issues have prevented SWA from recovering as quickly as everyone else.
Machines fail in extreme cold. You don't know what will work and what won't or how long it will take to get them working. When temperatures are significantly colder than normal for an area the employees don't know how to deal with it so they are less efficient, don't know how to work the machine in the cold, and many of them can't or don't come to work. All of the airlines delt with these issue.
SWA's I.T. hasn't been updated to keep up with the airline as it has grown is size and complexity. I recently learned that the crew scheduling software apparently doesn't get real-time inputs (or enough inputs?) from the operations software which records delays, cancellations, out/in times, etc. When there are exceptions, they have to be input manually. That may work at a small airline but is unmanageable at this scale with widespread disruptions. This is how they "lost" their crews.
In the old days, it was relatively easy to figure out pilot legality. The new 14 CFR 117 rules for pilots are too complex. There are too many variables. You need a computer to reliably confirm legality. It also means that pilots and flight attendants are scheduled under different rules so you can't treat one full crew as a group.
Crewmembers can't contact the schedulers because the schedulers are overwhelmed. The only way I know to address this is through automation. The difference in the number of schedulers you need to work a wide-spread disruption, compared to what you need during normal ops, is significant. I don't know the multiple but 10x wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe more. You need automation to take care of as much of the schedule repair as possible because it isn't possible to multiply your staff by 10x when a disruption event occurs. Other airlines have significantly more automation in these processes than SWA apparently has but they still don't have enough.
I'm assuming you saw the same reddit post I did... Or at least, something of the same, but for the benefit of those who didnt: The scheduling software at WN is mostly to blame for their relatively poor performance recovering from the storm (relative to other major airlines, that is). Their route network didn't help. The lack of interlining agreements to even have the option to put their passengers to other airlines didn't help. But it was mostly their old system which doesn't feed real-time flight info back to their crew scheduling systems, and requires a manual process in order to account for irregularities.
Talking to scheduling friends of mine, on IRROP days they are often given OT to pick up extra shifts, but there's still not enough manpower. 10x-15x more manpower is probably about right, not including the hotel desk folks. There's the need to balance the "right now" (inbound crew is late, do we take them off and use field standbys? or delay their next flight 45 minutes?) with the "tomorrow" (that crew that was delayed 45 minutes is now under their minimum rest requirements, do we delay the outbound flight in the morning, or recrew it?) and the "big picture" (those reserves I used to recrew the flight are now close to their monthly maximums). Automation can help, but as we've seen at DL, all it takes is one bad day for the computer system and you have crews sleeping on the floor in the lounge.
Let's be clear, though -- this is not only a WN issue (based on your last sentence, I think we're on the same page here...) as a multi-airline coalition of unions put out a campaign in August alluding to this as a possibility, and asked for an extension on the PSP ban on stock buybacks.
I don't know what it's like on the pilot side of things, but UA Flight Attendant scheduling hold times this past week were measured in hours... and far too many of my colleagues had to "self-help" into hotel rooms (read: procure their own rooms because the company was unreachable)... which means the company had no idea where they were. Flights were delayed due to missing FAs who were still downline from their last trip. UA has certainly invested plenty in the type of software and automation you speak of, especially around the 2018 FA common metal era, but there are some tasks that can only be done by hand, and UA has just over half the personnel doing it in 2022 than they did in 2018. It was one of the facets of our (AFA's) FPS campaign -- failure to staff the crew schedulers appropriately.
Did UA do better than WN? Absolutely. But there is still plenty of room for improvement. I, for one, hope that DL, UA, and AA take this situation as a warning of what happens when you keep racing to the bottom and cut CASM based on perfect flying conditions, leaving them without room for flexibility in case of IRROPS.
P.S. I'm probably preaching to the choir here by quoting you of all people, but I figure the folks around here would appreciate the discussion
Talking to scheduling friends of mine, on IRROP days they are often given OT to pick up extra shifts, but there's still not enough manpower. 10x-15x more manpower is probably about right, not including the hotel desk folks. There's the need to balance the "right now" (inbound crew is late, do we take them off and use field standbys? or delay their next flight 45 minutes?) with the "tomorrow" (that crew that was delayed 45 minutes is now under their minimum rest requirements, do we delay the outbound flight in the morning, or recrew it?) and the "big picture" (those reserves I used to recrew the flight are now close to their monthly maximums). Automation can help, but as we've seen at DL, all it takes is one bad day for the computer system and you have crews sleeping on the floor in the lounge.
Let's be clear, though -- this is not only a WN issue (based on your last sentence, I think we're on the same page here...) as a multi-airline coalition of unions put out a campaign in August alluding to this as a possibility, and asked for an extension on the PSP ban on stock buybacks.
I don't know what it's like on the pilot side of things, but UA Flight Attendant scheduling hold times this past week were measured in hours... and far too many of my colleagues had to "self-help" into hotel rooms (read: procure their own rooms because the company was unreachable)... which means the company had no idea where they were. Flights were delayed due to missing FAs who were still downline from their last trip. UA has certainly invested plenty in the type of software and automation you speak of, especially around the 2018 FA common metal era, but there are some tasks that can only be done by hand, and UA has just over half the personnel doing it in 2022 than they did in 2018. It was one of the facets of our (AFA's) FPS campaign -- failure to staff the crew schedulers appropriately.
Did UA do better than WN? Absolutely. But there is still plenty of room for improvement. I, for one, hope that DL, UA, and AA take this situation as a warning of what happens when you keep racing to the bottom and cut CASM based on perfect flying conditions, leaving them without room for flexibility in case of IRROPS.
P.S. I'm probably preaching to the choir here by quoting you of all people, but I figure the folks around here would appreciate the discussion
Always appreciate when you and LarryJ take some time to share your perspectives on here. The underlined section above is a great reminder of how complicated service recovery can get, even in more isolated disruptions.
I was fortunate enough to attend a FT event at the UA HQ in Chicago where they demo'd some new software for rebooking. That was years ago, but even then I was amazed at how it was put thought out. Would love to see how they do it today.
Happy New Year to us all, with safe travels and great experiences on the horizon.
Dec 28, 2022, 7:51 am
#69
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC, LON
Programs: *
Posts: 2,767
No all airlines do not experience this. Can you give examples of the major airlines that have ever had this degree of cancellations for consecutive days? United IT outage in 2009 was child's play compared to this. IIRC it lasted few hours and affected few 100 as opposed to ten thousands plus flights.
Dec 28, 2022, 8:14 am
#70
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 957
No all airlines do not experience this. Can you give examples of the major airlines that have ever had this degree of cancellations for consecutive days? United IT outage in 2009 was child's play compared to this. IIRC it lasted few hours and affected few 100 as opposed to ten thousands plus flights.
This week has me reminiscing of the first splurge Christmas trip my wife and I tried to take our kids on. EWR-ORD-EGE in February. It was doomed the minute I booked that routing.
Dec 28, 2022, 9:31 am
#71
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 58
You do know that Southwest isn't rebooking anyone until the new year right? Compare that 51 hours as a non elite with United vs 168+ hour minimum to get on Southwest.
I maybe wrong but most of us regulars in the United Forum have some level of elite status or United Club membership that lets us cut in front of the general or non members and or have direct access to someone who can help us in the Club.
I maybe wrong but most of us regulars in the United Forum have some level of elite status or United Club membership that lets us cut in front of the general or non members and or have direct access to someone who can help us in the Club.
This is an unbelievably bad failure for Southwest. But I have always felt good about flying them otherwise. Never nickel-and-dimed, which United seems like now. For a long time I have felt that united just couldn’t care less, and this coming from someone who lives in the Chicago market.
And really, we were hoping for a good experience from United. It should be the best way for my relative to get here from Pittsburgh. Maybe I’ll suggest she gets one of their credit cards to at least get a checked bag. Does being a cardholder give any status that helps with resolving flight issues?
Dec 28, 2022, 10:10 am
#72
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bellingham/Gainesville
Programs: UA-G MM, Priority Club Platinum, Avis First, Hertz 5*, Red Lion
Posts: 2,808
No all airlines do not experience this. Can you give examples of the major airlines that have ever had this degree of cancellations for consecutive days? United IT outage in 2009 was child's play compared to this. IIRC it lasted few hours and affected few 100 as opposed to ten thousands plus flights.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 28, 2022 at 9:56 pm Reason: merged consecutive posts by same member
Dec 28, 2022, 10:39 am
#73
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC 75k, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,154
United has a Business cabin so we'd expect UA to have a higher yield overall, but in economy, prices is not too different.
Dec 28, 2022, 10:56 am
#74
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bellingham/Gainesville
Programs: UA-G MM, Priority Club Platinum, Avis First, Hertz 5*, Red Lion
Posts: 2,808
Is there a special government regulation that only impacts Southwest but not the other airlines? and which government regulations prevented Southwest from upgrading their scheduling system instead of manually rescheduling and communicating via telephone to their staff.
United has a Business cabin so we'd expect UA to have a higher yield overall, but in economy, prices is not too different.
United has a Business cabin so we'd expect UA to have a higher yield overall, but in economy, prices is not too different.
Dec 28, 2022, 11:03 am
#75
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC 75k, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,154
It doesn't change the fact that based on the discussion context, most passengers flying economy class do not pay a premium to fly UA vs WN and the experience (without elite status) is largely the same. How much someone in F/J class pays is irrelevant as someone flying Southwest would not be looking at flying F/J on UA.