"We will win customers on quality," Kirby said.
Nov 25, 2021, 12:51 pm
#61
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Houston
Programs: UA GS 2.6MM & Lifetime UC, Qantas Platinum, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Bonvoy Platinum, HawaiianMiles
Posts: 8,694
The “network” argument seems to be falling pretty flat compared to AA and DL. AA’s schedule out of GCK is much better than UA’s out of DDC/LBL, for example. Same for other outstations like RDD or CAK. And then UA has simply abandoned a place like RST.
If we’re only looking at routes between major cities (eg SFO-JFK), AA and DL still have a better network. UA is taking this one a bit for granted.
I stay with UA since they seem to cancel flights the least and handle IRROPS well, the 1K desk is very helpful and doesn’t have bad hold times, and partially just inertia. (I also really like UA crews when I get a good one - when they’re good they’re great.)
But network, cleanliness, service, quality, food… these are not areas UA is shining.
If we’re only looking at routes between major cities (eg SFO-JFK), AA and DL still have a better network. UA is taking this one a bit for granted.
I stay with UA since they seem to cancel flights the least and handle IRROPS well, the 1K desk is very helpful and doesn’t have bad hold times, and partially just inertia. (I also really like UA crews when I get a good one - when they’re good they’re great.)
But network, cleanliness, service, quality, food… these are not areas UA is shining.
Nov 25, 2021, 1:23 pm
#62
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: UA Premier Platinum, DL Platinum
Posts: 597
In my experience, there's a little more bounciness at Delta: The crews are perkier, the vibe is warmer, the agents can sometimes be friendlier. I attribute it to younger crews and the fact that so many of their employees are Southern and Midwestern — regions known for being warmer than, say, New York or DC. (And, for these purposes, I don't consider ORD the Midwest.)
However, I've found United staff to be more intuitive and able to fix problems. The cabin crews may be more senior and less bubbly, but, in my experience, they've been able to turn the plane faster, keep track of orders, and generally manage their cabins efficiently. That may not be as desirable on a long-haul route in a premium cabin, where passengers want kind and comfortable service, but it sure is nice when you're trying to get from DC to New York or Chicago with a tight connection.
Likewise, the UA staff I've dealt with on the ground often know how to make the system work quickly, getting me reticketed in case of IROPS even if it means having to punch a hole in the booking system to make it work.
So, if I'm flying for leisure, DL may offer a warmer experience. But if I'm trying to get there efficiently, I feel like UA executes.
However, I've found United staff to be more intuitive and able to fix problems. The cabin crews may be more senior and less bubbly, but, in my experience, they've been able to turn the plane faster, keep track of orders, and generally manage their cabins efficiently. That may not be as desirable on a long-haul route in a premium cabin, where passengers want kind and comfortable service, but it sure is nice when you're trying to get from DC to New York or Chicago with a tight connection.
Likewise, the UA staff I've dealt with on the ground often know how to make the system work quickly, getting me reticketed in case of IROPS even if it means having to punch a hole in the booking system to make it work.
So, if I'm flying for leisure, DL may offer a warmer experience. But if I'm trying to get there efficiently, I feel like UA executes.
Nov 25, 2021, 2:26 pm
#63
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: DYKWIA, But I'm a "Diamond Guest" UA 1K/2MM
Posts: 2,257
I think it's *very* telling that every single complaint posted above has to do with food & beverage.
Not one complaint about route network.
Not one complaint about on-time arrivals.
Not one complaint about baggage handling.
Not one complaint about massive flight cancellations.
Not one complaint about maintenance issues.
.....
Not one complaint about route network.
Not one complaint about on-time arrivals.
Not one complaint about baggage handling.
Not one complaint about massive flight cancellations.
Not one complaint about maintenance issues.
.....
So far this year (less than 50% usual travel), I've
* Missed a World Championship sporting event because United got my gear to me 2 days late.
* Had delays of 1+ hours on every single international flight I've taken this year
* Had three unwanted overnight stays because of delays.
* Had multiple rolling delays (1 hour + 1 hour + 1 hour ) because operations were either incompetent in assessing a problem or dishonest
* Had an international flight delayed 2+ hours because "the plane needed to be cleaned" (it was already sitting at the gate for 3 hours).
* Had United claim "on-time departure" when the inbound flight wasn't even due to land at departure time. This happened at least 10X in the last year.
See, that's not as interesting as a discussion of onboard service. That's why most people don't do it. But don't take that as a statement that United doesn't suck in these ways too.
Last edited by porciuscato; Nov 25, 2021 at 2:47 pm
Nov 25, 2021, 3:26 pm
#64
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: TOA
Programs: HH Diamond, Marriott LTPP/Platinum Premier, Hyatt Lame-ist, UA !K
Posts: 20,061
Perhaps because these all go without saying. Also, it's harder to put color on some of these than it is on on-board service. But here you go.
So far this year (less than 50% usual travel), I've
* Missed a World Championship sporting event because United got my gear to me 2 days late.
* Had delays of 1+ hours on every single international flight I've taken this year
* Had three unwanted overnight stays because of delays.
* Had multiple rolling delays (1 hour + 1 hour + 1 hour ) because operations were either incompetent in assessing a problem or dishonest
* Had an international flight delayed 2+ hours because "the plane needed to be cleaned" (it was already sitting at the gate for 3 hours).
* Had United claim "on-time departure" when the inbound flight wasn't even due to land at departure time. This happened at least 10X in the last year.
See, that's not as interesting as a discussion of onboard service. That's why most people don't do it. But don't take that as a statement that United doesn't suck in these ways too.
So far this year (less than 50% usual travel), I've
* Missed a World Championship sporting event because United got my gear to me 2 days late.
* Had delays of 1+ hours on every single international flight I've taken this year
* Had three unwanted overnight stays because of delays.
* Had multiple rolling delays (1 hour + 1 hour + 1 hour ) because operations were either incompetent in assessing a problem or dishonest
* Had an international flight delayed 2+ hours because "the plane needed to be cleaned" (it was already sitting at the gate for 3 hours).
* Had United claim "on-time departure" when the inbound flight wasn't even due to land at departure time. This happened at least 10X in the last year.
See, that's not as interesting as a discussion of onboard service. That's why most people don't do it. But don't take that as a statement that United doesn't suck in these ways too.
David
Nov 25, 2021, 5:33 pm
#65
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 4,998
Nov 25, 2021, 8:05 pm
#67
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,224
Having just flown UA in business to MUC, I feel that it is simply miles from providing acceptable, let alone good service. Some of its shortcomings will require a little work to fix but many are the result of zero training and shortsighted management.
To pick just a handful:
- Being forced to wait outside the lounge for others to leave and make space. But it’s over a month since the date of the USA opening was announced and flights started selling out. Why have the other lounges not been opened?
- Being asked immediately on take off what drink I want. On being asked what the wine choice is, the FA simply responds red or white. Not only could she not be bothered to check, but it was abundantly clear that she had no clue that the choice matters. Other airlines either train their employees or have a list.
- On what planet is it sensible to serve ice cream as a third course at the same time as the other courses, so that it’s a melted mess by the time you reach it?
- Why are FAs permitted to alter the safety announcement to add “and, most importantly, wear a mask”? Is it the most important part of the safety announcement? Does the FAA agree?
None of these things are deal breakers but when the price of the ticket is nearly $20,000 return, and there are choices, UA is strongly reinforcing the general narrative that it is an airline to avoid. And all of these are issues which are down to management not rogue employees.
To pick just a handful:
- Being forced to wait outside the lounge for others to leave and make space. But it’s over a month since the date of the USA opening was announced and flights started selling out. Why have the other lounges not been opened?
- Being asked immediately on take off what drink I want. On being asked what the wine choice is, the FA simply responds red or white. Not only could she not be bothered to check, but it was abundantly clear that she had no clue that the choice matters. Other airlines either train their employees or have a list.
- On what planet is it sensible to serve ice cream as a third course at the same time as the other courses, so that it’s a melted mess by the time you reach it?
- Why are FAs permitted to alter the safety announcement to add “and, most importantly, wear a mask”? Is it the most important part of the safety announcement? Does the FAA agree?
None of these things are deal breakers but when the price of the ticket is nearly $20,000 return, and there are choices, UA is strongly reinforcing the general narrative that it is an airline to avoid. And all of these are issues which are down to management not rogue employees.
As far as the price of the ticket, this is your choice to pay. I certainly wouldn't. I would choose DL or an EU airline to Europe these days in biz.
Nov 25, 2021, 8:40 pm
#68
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Heading to Costco for more popcorn...
Programs: UA 1K 2MM Flier, SPG Plt, Hilton Dia
Posts: 8,461
There are major (positive) changes on the way, specifically the lounge and catering/onboard soft product. They aren’t coming tomorrow, but they are coming, and I’m sure you’ll soon hear the same from more credible sources than me.
The current state of affairs is not for the long-term.
The current state of affairs is not for the long-term.
Last edited by cawhite; Nov 25, 2021 at 8:48 pm
Nov 25, 2021, 8:52 pm
#69
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Honolulu Harbor
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 15,019
) on the part of the passenger. I would have adapted
Nov 25, 2021, 9:27 pm
#71
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SEA or BGR, Lower Earth Orbit
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 17,217
United has its struggles, there's still plenty of people that bring up that doctor that was dragged off the plane a few years ago, the song "united breaks guitars", and the recent death that has been attributed to the damaged wheel chair. Getting the flight crew to be a bit more cheery would always help. But everyone is worn down with covid right now. I had to switch to Delta for a couple years when I lived in Maine and UA didn't fly into BGR. It was rough. The soft product is adequate. On time for me was always a struggle. I was *always* worried about missing my connection, even with a two hour layover, because inevitably something would go wrong and I'd have a delay. I just haven't had those worries with UA.
Continental had the better brand image at the merger, I don't think that even keeping the CO name would have prevented what happened in the years after the merger. But if they don't outgrow their support network, and airports, and improve the soft product (seriously change the menu in F more frequently, hell, have four menus based on the direction flown, and the old AM/PM boxes were better than what is offered now.) They can fix it, and win customers over. They just have to be consistent with it.
Perhaps they should buy some more copies of his book and re-read it. It was very interesting.
I've never really personally had issues with UA. At the end of 2019 was the only time I haven't been able to make it to my destination. Found myself stuck at EWR with ZERO seats to any airport in Wisconsin, and the next confirmed seat to ORD three days away.
I started with UA, and eventually switched to CO and basically stayed there until the merger. The fact that CO was the ones in charge after the merger it just doesn't feel like it. CO always felt like a boutique airline that just happened to have a global network. You didn't fly them because they had the best schedule (especially to the west coast) you flew them because they'd get you there, they'd be nice about getting you there, you wouldn't get beat up getting there, and the flight overall didn't suck. CO was one of the hold outs for cutting meals in coach, and one of the last (if not the last) to start charging for a checked bag in Y. I miss the CO soft product, it was overall better than the alternatives at the time.
The President's Club vs the United Club, honestly the UC has better food than the PC ever did. Best you'd get would be snacks, cereal, cheese, crackers, and maybe a cookie tray. United has sold its clubs as credit card amenity, and the "unwashed masses" go in all the time. It ultimately cheapened the product. They'd be better off dropping that to push the product back up.
Continental had the better brand image at the merger, I don't think that even keeping the CO name would have prevented what happened in the years after the merger. But if they don't outgrow their support network, and airports, and improve the soft product (seriously change the menu in F more frequently, hell, have four menus based on the direction flown, and the old AM/PM boxes were better than what is offered now.) They can fix it, and win customers over. They just have to be consistent with it.
Perhaps they should buy some more copies of his book and re-read it. It was very interesting.
I think it's *very* telling that every single complaint posted above has to do with food & beverage.
Not one complaint about route network.
Not one complaint about on-time arrivals.
Not one complaint about baggage handling.
Not one complaint about massive flight cancellations.
Not one complaint about maintenance issues.
That speaks volumes. In fact, forget this thread -- most of the complaints here on the MileagePlus board altogether have to do with F&B. Or even more trivial items like, say, blankets.
So -- are we more worried about United the airline, or United the sky restaurant?
Seems to me United the airline is doing just great - and in fact MUCH better than its competitors ... Look at all the network meltdowns at Delta, AA, Southwest, Spirit -- the list goes on ...
So yeah, quality? I'd say 'ol Kirbster is on to something. He's right. It IS a quality airline. United the sky restaurant needs work, I agree there. But there's only one person I know who actually flies to eat, and he's not on FT.
My flying is down from previous years due to the pandemic, but even still -- United gets me where I want to go, when I want to get there, on time, with my stuff. If the worst I can complain about is that the wine is served in a plastic cup instead of glass.... I mean, come on now. Gotta keep it in perspective.
Thank you for all that you do, 757FO . Thank you for flying us safely. Thank you for being there, for making sure the planes keep moving, the goods get delivered, and the people get where they're going. It matters WAY more than any of us acknowledge.
Not one complaint about route network.
Not one complaint about on-time arrivals.
Not one complaint about baggage handling.
Not one complaint about massive flight cancellations.
Not one complaint about maintenance issues.
That speaks volumes. In fact, forget this thread -- most of the complaints here on the MileagePlus board altogether have to do with F&B. Or even more trivial items like, say, blankets.
So -- are we more worried about United the airline, or United the sky restaurant?
Seems to me United the airline is doing just great - and in fact MUCH better than its competitors ... Look at all the network meltdowns at Delta, AA, Southwest, Spirit -- the list goes on ...
So yeah, quality? I'd say 'ol Kirbster is on to something. He's right. It IS a quality airline. United the sky restaurant needs work, I agree there. But there's only one person I know who actually flies to eat, and he's not on FT.
My flying is down from previous years due to the pandemic, but even still -- United gets me where I want to go, when I want to get there, on time, with my stuff. If the worst I can complain about is that the wine is served in a plastic cup instead of glass.... I mean, come on now. Gotta keep it in perspective.
Thank you for all that you do, 757FO . Thank you for flying us safely. Thank you for being there, for making sure the planes keep moving, the goods get delivered, and the people get where they're going. It matters WAY more than any of us acknowledge.
Continental used to compete on quality and service. I remember being served free hot cheeseburgers in coach on cheap tickets as recently as 2010. They were the last carrier to do so.
Likewise the Presidents Clubs used to feel premium - Pepperidge Farm cookies, showers at EWR and IAH, etc.
I would say that United feels more like Amtrak or Greyhound now, but my last trip on Amtrak had was a stunningly good experience: excellent porter, good beds, good shower, great waiters, and a great breakfast. On $337 tickets for 2 people on a trip that would have taken as long and cost more on UA.
UA execs should travel Amtrak a bit particularly in premium cabins, err, premium cars and take notes.
Likewise the Presidents Clubs used to feel premium - Pepperidge Farm cookies, showers at EWR and IAH, etc.
I would say that United feels more like Amtrak or Greyhound now, but my last trip on Amtrak had was a stunningly good experience: excellent porter, good beds, good shower, great waiters, and a great breakfast. On $337 tickets for 2 people on a trip that would have taken as long and cost more on UA.
UA execs should travel Amtrak a bit particularly in premium cabins, err, premium cars and take notes.
The President's Club vs the United Club, honestly the UC has better food than the PC ever did. Best you'd get would be snacks, cereal, cheese, crackers, and maybe a cookie tray. United has sold its clubs as credit card amenity, and the "unwashed masses" go in all the time. It ultimately cheapened the product. They'd be better off dropping that to push the product back up.
Nov 26, 2021, 9:51 am
#73
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: Does Non Rev count?
Posts: 588
Fair enough, and thankfully for the traveling public, this is true.
Nov 26, 2021, 10:03 am
#74
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,200
My breakfast SNA IAH, a 3+hr flight was a tiny hot egg and ham croissant and nothing else.
Not sure how much winning this is, but if I wasn’t in paid Z class just to finish my FTTF promo, I’d be pretty disappointed with this offering although I will say the two guys, seem like twins, working upfront are highly excellent.
Rather than leading the industry on quality, this smacks more of “normalizing to the industry” - a corporate buzzword for “let’s all fail together”
Not sure how much winning this is, but if I wasn’t in paid Z class just to finish my FTTF promo, I’d be pretty disappointed with this offering although I will say the two guys, seem like twins, working upfront are highly excellent.
Rather than leading the industry on quality, this smacks more of “normalizing to the industry” - a corporate buzzword for “let’s all fail together”
Nov 26, 2021, 11:23 am
#75
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,450
My one concern about the clubs is if UA introduces a more restrictive access policy similar to Delta's. Based on nothing more than my own pure speculation, I think a restriction on guest admission is coming. An increase in membership fees is probably in the offing, too.
If you look around, you'll see I'm not the only one hearing rumblings like this, so I think the rumor has some legs.
As far as devaluing MP, the biggest changes have already taken place. A pure dynamic redemption scheme is reality, married segment logic is a constant pain, award pricing has been increasing steadily and generally, valuation of MP miles is crap. Yet, we're still here, with (mostly) the same complaints as ever
...Does that include replacing United Club agents with “virtual agents” accessed via QR code? Coming to the ORD B6 lounge effective Dec 2 (the agents downstairs will remain to check in guests, but the agents upstairs who assist pax will no longer be there) - it’s been on a “trial basis” Tues-Thurs the past month or two and will now be seven days/week. (ETA I haven’t heard specific plans for other locations yet other than it was supposedly also “tested” at one of the IAD lounges, so it is a genuine question.)
Last edited by EWR764; Nov 26, 2021 at 11:30 am