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Use of Infant Car Seats in UA's Polaris Seats, UA says No but ....

Use of Infant Car Seats in UA's Polaris Seats, UA says No but ....

Old May 5, 2021, 10:02 am
  #76  
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Originally Posted by jjj8
No. I saw a blog post (plus comments below) saying that FAs do not enforce this policy and have a different official policy that is more lenient. Given that, plus the fact that the policy allows child seats on 757-200s with Diamond seats, it seems like they might also be allowed on 763s with Diamond seats. My question is: what experiences have people had with FAs enforcing this policy? (I mean, isn't so much of FT about what the airlines' effective policies are, not what's written on some web page?)
The posted policy on United.com matches what was in FA Manuals when I was flying (I have not seen an updated manual, but AFAIK, the restriction has not changed)

You *may* get a crew who is unaware, or is willing to look the other way, but do not count on anything other than the posted policy.

Originally Posted by sannmann
Flight attendants are not considered airmen for the purposes of the FAA. FAs do earn a Certificate of Demonstrated Proficiency; however, this is not considered an airman certification.
Enforcement action is possible against FAs (although exceedingly rare), which is what the posters were referring to.

The card issued to FAs is an Airmen's Certificate that says "Flight Attendant" and is run through the Airmen Certification Branch. I don't think the pedantry of "Airmen Certification" vs "Certificate of Demonstrated Proficiency that is printed on an Airmen's Certificate card and holders of whom are called airmen" is all that important, but I guess we are on FT.
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Old May 5, 2021, 10:33 am
  #77  
 
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer
How is it not in violation of FAA rules?
121.311 (c)(3) gives United the way out:
This section does not prohibit the certificate holder from providing child restraint systems authorized by this section or, consistent with safe operating practices, determining the most appropriate passenger seat location for the child restraint system.
United could just determine that the most appropriate seat is one in the economy or Premium Plus cabin. (The one time I was trying to use the car seat, they did tell us that we could just sit in a different cabin).
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Old May 5, 2021, 10:55 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by fatlasercat
121.311 (c)(3) gives United the way out:


United could just determine that the most appropriate seat is one in the economy or Premium Plus cabin. (The one time I was trying to use the car seat, they did tell us that we could just sit in a different cabin).
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/...ac_120-87c.pdf

"No aircraft operator may prohibit a child from using an approved CRS when the parent/guardian purchases a seat for the child. If an approved CRS, for which a ticket has been purchased, does not fit in a particular seat on the aircraft, the aircraft operator has the responsibility to accommodate the CRS in another seat in the same class of service."

"
prohibiting the use of a CRS (if a ticket has been purchased), when there are seats on the aircraft in the same class of service where the CRS could be used safely, is not consistent with the requirements in parts 121, 125, and 135."
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Old May 5, 2021, 11:07 am
  #79  
 
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer

"No aircraft operator may prohibit a child from using an approved CRS when the parent/guardian purchases a seat for the child. If an approved CRS, for which a ticket has been purchased, does not fit in a particular seat on the aircraft, the aircraft operator has the responsibility to accommodate the CRS in another seat in the same class of service."
Although, hasn't United essentially said it isn't approved in those Polaris seats rather explicitly?
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Old May 5, 2021, 11:12 am
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Originally Posted by HNLbasedFlyer
Although, hasn't United essentially said it isn't approved in those Polaris seats rather explicitly?
This is what the FA's manual said. It contradicts itself by saying it's due to the 18 degree issue and implying that's the case for all Polaris seats, when in fact it only affects half the seats.
Per FAA rules, they should reseat carseats in a forward facing Polaris seat.

.
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Old May 5, 2021, 11:16 am
  #81  
 
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Advisory Circulars are not regulatory.

But again, I completely agree that United is in the wrong here and the whole thing is completely stupid. All I am saying is that what they are doing is not a clear cut violation of the FAA rules.
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Old May 5, 2021, 11:37 am
  #82  
 
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Ill ask my F/As about this when I fly later this afternoon. Ive personally never run into such a situation where this has become an issue on the aircraft. Kudos to FT for the dialogue!

That being said, it does seem a bit overdramatic stating United is violating any FAA rules with this. All operations manual inclusions, amendments, procedures, etc. have to be approved by the FAA prior to becoming company policy.

I would be hard pressed to think that the FAA would sign off on a company policy that directly violates any CFR as is being claimed upthread.
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Old May 5, 2021, 12:03 pm
  #83  
 
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Originally Posted by clubord
I’ll ask my F/As about this when I fly later this afternoon. I’ve personally never run into such a situation where this has become an issue on the aircraft. Kudos to FT for the dialogue!

That being said, it does seem a bit overdramatic stating United is violating any FAA rules with this. All operations manual inclusions, amendments, procedures, etc. have to be approved by the FAA prior to becoming “company policy.”

I would be hard pressed to think that the FAA would sign off on a company policy that directly violates any CFR as is being claimed upthread.
"Company policy" led to Jan Brown telling Sylvia Tsao to put 22 month Evan Tsao on the ground. Sylvia confronted Jan after the UA232 crash and told her, “You told me to put my son on the floor, I did, and he’s gone.”

Sometimes in society we need to think critically. Does it really make sense to enforce a rule, based on the stated 18 degree angle which isn't applicable in half of Polaris seats, that will make your passengers less safe?

It's a shame that UA doesn't rectify this absurd policy and that FAs are caught in the middle, but c'est la vie.
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Old Jun 5, 2021, 2:43 am
  #84  
 
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Following up on my question from a month ago about infant car seats in Polaris:

Our SFO-LIH flight ended up being on a 763 with the new Polaris seats. My 2yo daughter was in 3F (straight/forward-facing) and I was in 4L (angled). The FAs did not allow my daughter to sit in the car seat for takeoff or landing, but they did allow her to sit in it for the entire duration of the flight otherwise. They let me keep the car seat installed for landing in the empty seat (my daughter was in my lap); they didn't require me to remove it for landing from the empty seat and stow it in the closet, which would have been a hassle. The checkin and gate agents had no idea about the car seat rules onboard the aircraft, but the FAs were consistent and had definitive knowledge, and everyone was so nice.

On Diamond seats vs. new Polaris: I was worried that the new Polaris seats would be bad in this situation because there was an aisle separating my daughter and me. Actually, it was great! There was plenty of room for us to sit in one of the seats together for takeoff, landing, and meals. For most of the flight, it was a benefit that she was in a cozy, private seat without a lot of visual stimuli (kind of like how it would be in a car). She slept amazingly for most of the flight (much better than if she could see me because then she'd want to chat and play instead of napping). Obviously every kid is different, but in the future I would go so far as to say I'd even prefer new Polaris to Diamond even when traveling with a 2yo or similar age.
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Old Feb 6, 2022, 10:20 am
  #85  
 
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Any other or recent experiences with FAs permitting (or not permitting) the use of seats in Polaris after takeoff and before landing?

What about in the 757-200?
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Old Feb 7, 2022, 5:20 pm
  #86  
 
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Originally Posted by onthesam
Any other or recent experiences with FAs permitting (or not permitting) the use of seats in Polaris after takeoff and before landing?

What about in the 757-200?
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Wife and I traveled with our 14 month old from FRA to SFO in Polaris (777ER, I believe) and my wife was shocked when the flight attendants wouldn't let her put our kid in the car seat. Despite a lot of pleading, no dice. We had to hold him the entire flight. Not blaming the FAs at all, they are just doing their jobs, but it seems crazy to me that it's safer to hold an infant in the lap than use a car seat.

We didn't try asking for the option to use the seat during level flight, but in our return tomorrow I plan on asking about it.

What bothers me the most is the total lack of communication from United about this. They knew we were flying with an infant when we booked the ticket, but never said anything about the restrictions. We've flown on numerous carriers in business class and never experienced this issue. If we had been given advance information, we would have simply booked on another carrier.
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Old Feb 7, 2022, 5:35 pm
  #87  
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Best to review UA's Traveling with children
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Old Mar 10, 2022, 7:51 am
  #88  
 
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Data point:

We attempted to board ORD-OGG on the 788 a few weeks ago with our infant son in hand and 3 F BPs.

Contrary to some other stories upthread, after consulting with the cabin crew, GA determined the infant would not be permitted in a F seat at any time during the flight, except on our lap (consistent with the posted rules). Our son's ticket was cancelled by the GA and we were permitted to board with ontheJR as a lap infant. Though we were cool with everything (knowing the rules upfront), the GA brought a supervisor over none the less who was very apologetic.
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ps though the UA website shows no bassinets in 788 F, there appears to be one at seat 1A. We had 1DF and were permitted to create a makeshift bassinet above.



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Old Mar 10, 2022, 8:14 am
  #89  
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Originally Posted by onthesam
Data point:

We attempted to board ORD-OGG on the 788 a few weeks ago with our infant son in hand and 3 F BPs.

Contrary to some other stories upthread, after consulting with the cabin crew, GA determined the infant would not be permitted in a F seat at any time during the flight, except on our lap (consistent with the posted rules). Our son's ticket was cancelled by the GA and we were permitted to board with ontheJR as a lap infant. Though we were cool with everything (knowing the rules upfront), the GA brought a supervisor over none the less who was very apologetic.
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ps though the UA website shows no bassinets in 788 F, there appears to be one at seat 1A. We had 1DF and were permitted to create a makeshift bassinet above.


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Interesting snack basket...and plane-themed wrapper...

Glad you had a makeshift option. And no turbulence.

David
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Old Mar 10, 2022, 8:58 am
  #90  
 
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Originally Posted by onthesam
Data point:

We attempted to board ORD-OGG on the 788 a few weeks ago with our infant son in hand and 3 F BPs.

Contrary to some other stories upthread, after consulting with the cabin crew, GA determined the infant would not be permitted in a F seat at any time during the flight, except on our lap (consistent with the posted rules). Our son's ticket was cancelled by the GA and we were permitted to board with ontheJR as a lap infant. Though we were cool with everything (knowing the rules upfront), the GA brought a supervisor over none the less who was very apologetic.
​​​​​​
ps though the UA website shows no bassinets in 788 F, there appears to be one at seat 1A. We had 1DF and were permitted to create a makeshift bassinet above.


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Why was the GA involved? Did you preemptively ask the GA?

Gotta love how UA thinks that bassinet is safe but a carseat isn't. Talk about shades of UA232!
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