UA needs to copy DL immediately on WiFi

Old Jan 8, 2020, 11:18 am
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by st3
100% This. Until the "free" wi-fi can handle a large number of the passengers streaming video (while not dropping a ton of packets for those on VPNs or other connections) it is a dubious proposition and marketing fluff.
I don't see that happening inside of 10-15 years. This is still a satellite based connection and the bandwidth available is growing slower than or at best equal to the rate at which people normally consume data on their devices. Best solution is to just charge for data by volume used, after giving a certain nominal amount for free. But the system really has to be setup for that. Currently, I'm pretty sure the authentication is by MAC address, and MAC addresses an be easily spoofed. They'd need to give each person a separate PSK from which a PTK can be generated, and somehow tie that to wifi access, so that someone sitting 5 rows from you can't sniff and then spoof your MAC address and use the data you paid for.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 11:19 am
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Originally Posted by WineCountryUA
You could half that number again to 10-15% of the passengers and that would still overwhelm 70Mbps. No wifi system, is 100% efficiency with a high number of simultaneous users. And some users are connecting to high demand work systems.

So while free basic email wifi is likely achievable, it probably will be necessary to charge / restrict for a premium level of service that supports streaming.
Agree... any free WiFi allowed by UA is doubtful to include streaming (at least initially).
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 11:43 am
  #63  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio
Agree... any free WiFi allowed by UA is doubtful to include streaming (at least initially).
The problem is it is too easy to get around the streaming blocking -- it needs to be a BW restriction, perhaps with a peak demand exception (for e-mail file download) or max bits per session limit.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 11:55 am
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Originally Posted by seenitall
No way. Back then you would be lucky to get a 10-20 MB drive, and it would cost more than $200. I got a 30 MB (really a 20 MB RLL) drive in 1989, and I am sure it added more than $200 to the $3000 cost of the complete (minus display) 386 system.
Storage is so cheap now I can't find a home for all the drives laying around. Just bought a 1TB SSD for $175.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 12:05 pm
  #65  
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Originally Posted by seenitall
No way. Back then you would be lucky to get a 10-20 MB drive, and it would cost more than $200. I got a 30 MB (really a 20 MB RLL) drive in 1989, and I am sure it added more than $200 to the $3000 cost of the complete (minus display) 386 system.
I know it was $200 for 80MB. It might have been 1989-ish. Still, outside of nit-picking the year, my point is the rapid advances in technology should allow free (maybe data-limited) WiFi to everyone on a plane in near future. Any airline who doesn't keep a high priority on providing some sort of access to everyone gratis is an airline a lot of people will avoid if an alternative (flight/network convenience) is available.

I had free WiFi SYD-AUK Air New Zealand with no problem and a plane (777) full of people. Worked better than ANZ's boarding process and departure timeliness. Full plane AUK-HNL, but can't comment on that because it was a redeye and I was asleep.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 12:08 pm
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio
Agree... any free WiFi allowed by UA is doubtful to include streaming (at least initially).
But unless they literally block all encrypted connections and force you to use HTTPS decryption by essentially doing a MITM attack on all of your traffic (which nobody, especially business travelers, would ever tolerate), then it's going to be possible to stream anything you want, via a VPN, regardless of how many sites they try to block.

Free wifi should include anything you want to use it for, including streaming. In practice, if you can only stream 30-60 seconds' worth of 4K video in the included amount of data, then it's not too incredibly useful to do that. But unlike hiding which sites you can visit, no VPN can hide the amount of data you're using, so to get people to not stream on board, you restrict the amount of data and charge for it.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 1:12 pm
  #67  
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I took a flight from LHR to LAX with Air New Zealand over the Christmas break. The wifi was free and, albeit with a little latency, quite fast. Good enough for browsing and sending email, it said not to stream to preserve bandwidth so I didn't try that.

This was on a full B777.

It can be done.
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 3:52 pm
  #68  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio
Agree... any free WiFi allowed by UA is doubtful to include streaming (at least initially).
A lot of DL aircraft have the 2K version of Wi-Fi which *does* allow you to stream things when purchasing from GoGo. I definitely have watched hour long YouTube videos on the 738 and 319 a few times back in like 2017. Is it reliable? Not so much, but the aircraft does have the capability to do so (in theory). DL also offers free SMS texting inflight, but I've never got that to work either on the iPhone.

These days I'm super screwed because my work laptop I travel with has this obnoxious endpoint security software for the VPN that will often block out Wi-Fi transmissions. It works on PC's but handles terribly on the MAC and also tends to slow down the performance of the computer. And for whatever reason, it really hates Gogo. I can't imagine it would ever play nice with UA's Wi-Fi either.

Regarding internet video streaming: I'm surprised UA doesn't have this option considering how many aircraft are BYOD these days and how large the Wi-Fi antennas are on the top of the aircraft. Most of the UA streaming entertainment settings are controlled from an actual server onboard the aircraft, and that seems to be separate from the Wi-Fi.

IIRC, Android products have always been problematic with UA's app system for streaming entertainment, but seem to be OK on MAC. From what I understand, they've come a long way with the app and reliability with streaming entertainment but I can't imagine how a server can handle it if everyone is firing up their devices at the same time on an HD 777.

Last edited by LAX_AUS_DL_FLYER; Jan 8, 2020 at 4:08 pm
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Old Jan 8, 2020, 11:00 pm
  #69  
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Originally Posted by STS-134
Just because that's the maximum they can provide to one user, does not mean everyone on the plane can consume that much bandwidth simultaneously. My wifi network can easily provide over 1 Gbps of bandwidth per user but if there are 30 people connected to it, and all 30 people try to consume 1 Gbps at the same time, they're not all getting that much.
No... 70Mbps is shared among the whole plane (not per user!!)

That is a lot. My building has a 100Mbps connection through WebPass. I'm not sure how many people in the building sign up for it, but I'm sure a lot do because it's really cheap. I stream everything all the time (and given the demographics here, most likely so does everyone else) and the quality is always good.

Also you can't get 1Gbps over wifi. 802.11n maxes at 600Mbps, though realistically you won't get more than 100. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_8...ble_throughput

Last edited by VegasGambler; Jan 9, 2020 at 2:47 am
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Old Jan 9, 2020, 2:23 am
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I would rather get "free" advance seat assignment and checked bags instead of wifi.

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Old Jan 9, 2020, 6:40 am
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Been on over 500 UA flights, never logged on to the internet once. It's my escape time, movie and a drink or two.
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Old Jan 9, 2020, 8:25 am
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Originally Posted by LAX_AUS_DL_FLYER
It works on PC's but handles terribly on the MAC and also tends to slow down the performance of the computer.
...
IIRC, Android products have always been problematic with UA's app system for streaming entertainment, but seem to be OK on MAC.
Just FYI, as someone who works in Wi-Fi, I found your post difficult to parse initially. In the context of Ethernet and Wi-Fi and other networking technologies (and this thread is about Wi-Fi after all), MAC (in all caps) refers to Layer 2 of the OSI model, the Medium Access Control layer. Mac (capital first letter, lowercase "a and c") is a well accepted abbreviation for Macintosh. I don't believe Apple has ever referred to their Macintosh line of products as "MAC" and it took me a while to figure out that you meant the latter but you wrote it like the former.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler
No... 70Mbps is shared among the whole plane (not per user!!)
Well if one user were to boot everyone else off of the network, he/she could get the full 70 Mbps. That's my point. Max throughput for any individual user is not the same as what all users get in a shared setting.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler
That is a lot. My building has a 100Mbps connection through WebPass. I'm not sure how many people in the building sign up for it, but I'm sure a lot do because it's really cheap. I stream everything all the time (and given the demographics here, most likely so does everyone else) and the quality is always good.
5-8 4K simultaneous streams will take down that connection, so my conclusion must be that you either aren't on a shared 100 Mbps connection, OR you never have more than ~4 people streaming at the same time. How did you determine that the connection to your building is 100 Mbps? You can't do it by running a simple speed test, because there could be traffic shaping equipment behind the entry point that throttles any individual user or unit down to 100 Mbps, regardless of the capabilities of the physical connection to the backbone.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler
Also you can't get 1Gbps over wifi. 802.11n maxes at 600Mbps, though realistically you won't get more than 100. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_8...ble_throughput
802.11n is so 8 years ago. Where have you been? We're now using 802.11ac and draft 802.11ax devices are already available.
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Old Jan 9, 2020, 9:27 am
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Delta does free wifi for texting apps (imessage); which would be great if United did it for short flights. Perhaps its me, but I've always found Delta's Wifi to be a lot more reliable than United's. Of course, its pretty amusing. I flew a brand new AC 787 this year that didn't have wifi at all. Was really annoyed to not have it on a daytime flight from YYZ-LHR on Monday . It could be a lot worse...
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Old Jan 9, 2020, 9:27 am
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Originally Posted by STS-134
Just FYI, as someone who works in Wi-Fi, I found your post difficult to parse initially. In the context of Ethernet and Wi-Fi and other networking technologies (and this thread is about Wi-Fi after all), MAC (in all caps) refers to Layer 2 of the OSI model, the Medium Access Control layer. Mac (capital first letter, lowercase "a and c") is a well accepted abbreviation for Macintosh. I don't believe Apple has ever referred to their Macintosh line of products as "MAC" and it took me a while to figure out that you meant the latter but you wrote it like the former.


Well if one user were to boot everyone else off of the network, he/she could get the full 70 Mbps. That's my point. Max throughput for any individual user is not the same as what all users get in a shared setting.


5-8 4K simultaneous streams will take down that connection, so my conclusion must be that you either aren't on a shared 100 Mbps connection, OR you never have more than ~4 people streaming at the same time. How did you determine that the connection to your building is 100 Mbps? You can't do it by running a simple speed test, because there could be traffic shaping equipment behind the entry point that throttles any individual user or unit down to 100 Mbps, regardless of the capabilities of the physical connection to the backbone.


802.11n is so 8 years ago. Where have you been? We're now using 802.11ac and draft 802.11ax devices are already available.
Alright, that's enough. Let's not try to one up each other on how much of a dork we can be ;-)
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Old Jan 9, 2020, 12:47 pm
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Originally Posted by LAX_AUS_DL_FLYER
Alright, that's enough. Let's not try to one up each other on how much of a dork we can be ;-)
In that case, I'm surprised no one has talked the new LEO/MEO satellite constellations will transform everything. OneWeb, O3b, StarLink, Project Kuiper et all have raised dozens of billions of dollars to bring fast inexpensive global internet. The amount of available satellite internet bandwidth will grow exponentially in the next decade...and remember airlines tend to plan equipment upgrades with a cadence of five or ten years.

To be honest I think the real impact will not be on in-flight wifi, but distributed work so people can life where the quality of life is high. My in-laws live in a beautiful part of rural Wisconsin that only received functional (i.e. 10mbps uncapped for less than $100/mo) satellite broadband last year.

Also---and, not to be pedantic, but if the issue is the current network capacity, why not simply add more antennas? If 50% of 200 passengers need 10mbps, that's 1 gbps of backhaul. Today Exede offers 60mbps/transponder so that's 1gbps/60mbps=16 2/3 transponders, so say 17. Now that many antennas might impact fuel burn, but my point is that fast inflight wifi is technically possible today despite probably not making economic sense.
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