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Were The Early 80's Really That Much Better On UA Than Now?

Were The Early 80's Really That Much Better On UA Than Now?

Old Dec 4, 2019, 7:53 pm
  #211  
 
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Originally Posted by seat38a
Ok so ISR's were trained as the FA's like to say "For Your Safety," and were certified to help in evacuations, but it was just union rules that prevented them from serving drinks. If that is the case, why were the Unions against the ISR's? Just make them union dues paying FA's who wore Kimonos and be done with it.
They were all Tokyo based Japanese nationals who didn't want to be unionized. So the union got them fired instead.
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Old Dec 4, 2019, 9:28 pm
  #212  
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Originally Posted by seat38a
Ok so ISR's were trained as the FA's like to say "For Your Safety," and were certified to help in evacuations[.]
Wait, what? How did we jump to the ISRs being there for safety and certified to help in evacuations?

They were there for language / cultural assistance.

Just make them union dues paying FA's who wore Kimonos and be done with it.
That would probably have been OK with the F/A union, but UA management didn't want to pay them union wages.

Eventually things evolved so that there are now F/A domiciles in Europe and Asia, paid at union wages.
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Old Dec 4, 2019, 11:18 pm
  #213  
 
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Originally Posted by Bear96
Wait, what? How did we jump to the ISRs being there for safety and certified to help in evacuations?

They were there for language / cultural assistance.
Cabin crew are there primarily for passenger safety. They may have other duties (translation, serving drinks, etc.,) but the legal requirement is for reasons of safety.

That would probably have been OK with the F/A union, but UA management didn't want to pay them union wages.

Eventually things evolved so that there are now F/A domiciles in Europe and Asia, paid at union wages.
UA had foreign domiciled crews from before. That's nothing new. And the ISR's had better compensation and benefits than the union members. It was simply that the ISRs had no interest in joining the union, and the union wanted to restrict the jobs to it's own members. As a result, the once very good reputation that both UA and NW/DL had with Japanese customers was squandered, and IMHO their viability on the onward routes from NRT were significantly impacted.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 2:21 am
  #214  
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Originally Posted by 5khours
Not economics. The union killed the position. I knew quite a few of the ISRs. Both NW and UA had them. They were hated by the U.S. based
FAs because they were non-union and replaced some of the regular FA positions on the most popular routes.
They absolutely were NOT part of the crew complement; they NEVER replaced a F/A. If a flight called for 15 F/As and there were 14 F/As + the ISR, the F/As got understaffing pay and worked with only 14 bodies. The union did NOT kill the position. The union *did* insist that the F/A contract Scope Clause be heeded and that the ISRs could do *no* F/A responsibilities. The ISRs you knew told you a bit of revisionist history.

Originally Posted by seat38a
Wait, but I thought they were not FA's. Wouldn't NW and UA still have to have the same legal number of FA's regardless of the ISR's?
Absolutely!

Originally Posted by seat38a
Ok so ISR's were trained as the FA's like to say "For Your Safety," and were certified to help in evacuations, but it was just union rules that prevented them from serving drinks. If that is the case, why were the Unions against the ISR's? Just make them union dues paying FA's who wore Kimonos and be done with it.
No, they were not FAA certified, though they did have training and knew how to evacuate. The union was *not* against the ISRs

Originally Posted by 5khours
They were all Tokyo based Japanese nationals who didn't want to be unionized. So the union got them fired instead.
The. Union. Did. Not. Get. Them. Fired. Sheesh.

For those that have not followed my posts over the years. I'm a retired United F/A. I worked solely international routes since 1986 (Pac Day,) and was an active union member (I was Grievance and Scheduling trained) and spent many hours working in AFA offices. I undoubtedly knew more ISRs than @5khours .
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Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 5, 2019 at 4:53 pm Reason: merged consecutive posts by same member
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 5:19 am
  #215  
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Originally Posted by 5khours
Cabin crew are there primarily for passenger safety. They may have other duties (translation, serving drinks, etc.,) but the legal requirement is for reasons of safety.
The ISRs were technically / legally (as in, in the eyes of the FAA, let alone the F/A union) NOT part of the cabin crew.


UA had foreign domiciled crews from before.
Before what? Are you saying UA had foreign domiciled crew before Pac Day?

If so, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 5:20 am
  #216  
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Originally Posted by 1984SW
For those that have not followed my posts over the years. I'm a retired United F/A. I worked solely international routes since 1986 (Pac Day,) and was an active union member (I was Grievance and Scheduling trained) and spent many hours working in AFA offices. I undoubtedly knew more ISRs than 5khours .
We might know each other!

Glad you are here.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 7:02 am
  #217  
 
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Originally Posted by 1984SW
They absolutely were NOT part of the crew complement; they NEVER replaced a F/A. If a flight called for 15 F/As and there were 14 F/As + the ISR, the F/As got understaffing pay and worked with only 14 bodies. The union did NOT kill the position. The union *did* insist that the F/A contract Scope Clause be heeded and that the ISRs could do *no* F/A responsibilities. The ISRs you knew told you a bit of revisionist history.


Absolutely!
You know, one way unions "kill" positions is by insisting that everyone works strictly to rule.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 8:31 am
  #218  
 
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Originally Posted by findark
It's hard to compete with random anecdotes ($99 is awfully cheap for a transcon back in the day, and all reliable sources concur that average fares have remained roughly constant in nominal dollars since 1930), but even today you can fly LAX-NYC round-trip for $72 (in 1982 dollars) or as little as $50 if you want to fly Frontier (and not non-stop). If "way back when" is before Carter-era inflation, then this difference becomes much more dramatic.

I think the grand conceit is that the number of dollars to fly on a plane has never really gone down, and we are really, really bad at considering inflation.
I remember in the early 80s when World Airways was offering flights from BWI-LAX and OAK for 299 roundtrip my travel agent just about had a heart attack. Cheaper than any of the legacies. And it was this environment that gave birth to People Express. Travel today is much more affordable.

Last edited by uanj; Dec 5, 2019 at 8:59 am
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 9:33 am
  #219  
 
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Originally Posted by 1984SW
I .... was an active union member.
Obviously!!!!

And thank you for your efforts without which, this thread would probably not exist. (Kudos also to management and the FTC who deserve honorable mentions.)

Originally Posted by Bear96
Before what? Are you saying UA had foreign domiciled crew before Pac Day?
If so, you have no idea what you are talking about.
As far as Europe goes, I have no idea.

As far as the Pacific, no of course not since UA had virtually no presence in the region until it acquired the Pacific routes of Pan Am which had Tokyo based crews as far back as the mid-60's.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 10:20 am
  #220  
 
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Originally Posted by findark
This is definitely the one thing that gets me about some of the nostalgia, especially for "when Y was a nice experience". If you want to pay regulated Economy prices and get a decent flight, you still can.. it's called today's premium cabin

That being said, one thing that really depresses me about flying these days is how almost no one thinks it's special or magical anymore. We don't need to keep dressing up in coat and tie, but it's just sad to see pax in a spectrum between a belligerent, aggressive "come at me, do your worst, United" attitude and curling up in a ball praying it will be over one minute faster. People dress down to fly, try to sleep every second of the way, and now there is a deep-rooted cultural expectation that the flying experience is one of the most miserable times of your life rather than the excitement of a special trip. Pax used to be happier, and in even in premium cabins it's a very transactional "let's get this done with quickly" experience (admittedly also in keeping with the ever-faster pace of modern life).
Agreed. In the 70s when I considered going to Philmont Scout Ranch from Honolulu, it would have been over $2000 for a round-trip coach fare. That's 2000 in 1979 dollars. I dropped the idea like a hot coal.

This week, I booked a round trip fare from Colorado to HNL including flying First on the red-eye leg from HNL to DEN for under $1000. That's 1000 in 2019 dollars.

I'm glad I don't have to dress up to fly coach anymore but it's still a bit of a shock seeing people in first class dressed down wearing tee shirts and shorts and flip-flops. Flying has become what the general public wanted -- a faster bus trip. When airfare was regulated, airlines had to compete based on service. Every now and then, someone still tries to up the ante on service but it invariably devolves to what they can afford to field as they compete on price.

I suppose things could be worse. The future of space travel -- if/when we ever get public space travel -- looks like people will just slip into a plastic diaper, load themselves into a pod and then get dropped in place like the rest of the cargo. On the bright side, everyone will have their own IFE and waste disposal. No waiting in lines, no one pushing their elbows into your seat.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 10:52 am
  #221  
 
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Originally Posted by ExplorerWannabe
This week, I booked a round trip fare from Colorado to HNL including flying First on the red-eye leg from HNL to DEN for under $1000. That's 1000 in 2019 dollars.
You flew F roundtrip DEN_HNL_DEN for a total price of under 1K? On a publicly-available fare? Amazing.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 11:12 am
  #222  
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Originally Posted by ExplorerWannabe
I'm glad I don't have to dress up to fly coach anymore but it's still a bit of a shock seeing people in first class dressed down wearing tee shirts and shorts and flip-flops. Flying has become what the general public wanted -- a faster bus trip.
Part of what I see in dress isn't "level of formality" per se.. it's hard for me to describe but the clothing is just part of the whole attitude of "this is going to be my most miserable day of the year, and this is what I will wear for that". I mentioned I flew somewhere and people's reaction is "oh, I'm sorry you had to do that". Etc, etc.

Originally Posted by 747FC
You flew F roundtrip DEN_HNL_DEN for a total price of under 1K? On a publicly-available fare? Amazing.
I took it as DEN-HNL in Y and HNL-DEN in F. That's not too hard for under $1k.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 11:20 am
  #223  
 
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Originally Posted by 747FC
You flew F roundtrip DEN_HNL_DEN for a total price of under 1K? On a publicly-available fare? Amazing.
Originally Posted by findark
I took it as DEN-HNL in Y and HNL-DEN in F. That's not too hard for under $1k.
findark is correct -- Home-DEN-HNL in Y, HNL-DEN-Home in F. I saw no point in paying another $400 for F going west, LAX-HNL in Y just doesn't bother me. My point is just that Y 40 years ago was different because flying was different in general but so were the costs.

Originally Posted by findark
Part of what I see in dress isn't "level of formality" per se.. it's hard for me to describe but the clothing is just part of the whole attitude of "this is going to be my most miserable day of the year, and this is what I will wear for that". I mentioned I flew somewhere and people's reaction is "oh, I'm sorry you had to do that". Etc, etc.
Agreed but except in Hawaii and Guam (where semi-formal can mean you have a NEW tee-shirt and shorts), people dressing in tee shirt, shorts, and flip-flops is short-form for their attitude. Flying is nothing special anymore so they don't do anything special for it. If you're willing to pay equivalent prices to flying Coach in the 1970s, you can have a similar or better experience by flying F or J today.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 11:33 am
  #224  
 
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Originally Posted by GregoryGardner
You picked up your land-line telephone, and you called your local travel agent, and they figured it out. Then you paid the travel agent a shocking amount of money, and they give you a big stack of paper tickets each with many carbon copies.
Or walked into the travel agency office, which were almost as common as an insurance agent's office. If it was a simple ticket, they might issue it then. Anything else and you'd come back in a couple days. And the price and routing was pretty much this is it, unless you knew what to ask for.

And the memories of walking past the smokers to use the aft lavs once on board.
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Old Dec 5, 2019, 11:42 am
  #225  
 
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
[EDIT: I will add something else. It was harder to get into F without buying a F ticket at full fare or close to it. Frequent flyer program benefits were a lot less available back then. You didn't have this opportunity to earn hundreds of thousands of points not flying, there weren't large numbers of status upgrades- you could upgrade or "purchase" a premium cabin ticket with miles, but you weren't going to get to do that too often. And there were no TOD cash upgrades. So most people who flew F paid the full price for it.]
Redemption prices were much less though and a better value. I don't recall when they stopped, but I remember mostly booking 2 person rewards, which was an actual category with even less mile on a per person basis. The last one I booked in the 1990s was 2 people in TPAC F for 180,000 points (still the days of Dom/Caviar and the 747 OP configuration). The points about less full planes are correct. I remember one 1990s westbound TPAC were the flight attendants requested the F&C main deck passengers to keep the window shades down, but if you wanted to look out the windows as we were going over Alaska...you could go to the upper deck (which was empty and being treated like a lounge...watching the western Rockies/Mt Mckinley while being served drinks and chatting with the other travel geeks that never tire of looking out the window for that part of the flight...had a similar experience on one of the first polar / Siberian routings as well )

I completely forgot that the cocktails came out 2 at a time your drink + another little liquor bottle...even in economy if I recall correctly. On the original thread given UA was mostly domestic with a few international routes until they bought the Pan Am TPAC division ~1986, I'd say the F experience was far better than today and also involved the multi-course meals with trolley's to make salads, carve meat, select deserts and after dinner drinks as many have mentioned. Just about any major market from west coast to ORD or transcon was on a DC10 or 767; and they still used the DC-8s on secondary routes (ORD-Sacramento) that had a lot of F seats and were quite comfortable. A lot of the DC-10s then did short turns to places like ORD->CLE, DET, YYZ, PIT...as well as major east coast markets like BOS and PHL. ORD-->FL routes were pretty standard to have at least a few DC-10s as well. + the long lost Channel 9 was always an entertaining option if you didn't like the movie. I also remember being given free bottles of wine leaving the plane.

Frequencies weren't as great, but honestly, I'd still rather pick a domestic widebody with comfort and great service that runs every 2 hours to an hourly 737/A320 for a 4 flight. Great to see these are starting to come back into the rotation in some markets.
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