View Poll Results: No longer transfer Chase UR→UA @ 1:1 ratio (or at all)? What to do? What to do?
[NO] UA Card, [NO] Ultimate Rewards Card → [NO CHANGE] I still don't want any UA/UR Chase product
8.06%
[✓] UA Card, [NO] Ultimate Rewards Card → [NO CHANGE] I keep my UA card and [DO NOT] carry UR card.
9.48%
[✓] UA Card, [NO] Ultimate Rewards Card → [I KEEP] my UA card(s) and [ADD] UR Chase card(s).
3.79%
[✓] UA Card, [NO] Ultimate Rewards Card → [I CLOSE] Chase UA card and [DO NOT WANT] a UR Chase card.
1.90%
[NO] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → [NO CHANGE] I dont carry a UA card and I [KEEP] my UR card
25.59%
[NO] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → I [ADD] a UA card and I [CLOSE] my UR card.
0
0%
[NO] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → I [ADD] a UA card and I [KEEP] my UR card.
0.95%
[✓] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → [NO CHANGE], I keep [BOTH] my UA and UR Chase cards.
24.64%
[✓] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → I [KEEP] my UA card(s) and [CLOSE] my UR card(s).
2.37%
[✓] UA Card, [✓] Ultimate Rewards Card → I [CLOSE] my UA card(s) and [KEEP] my UR card(s).
23.22%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

United pushes JPM on Sapphire Reserve

Old Jul 3, 19, 1:18 pm
  #226  
 
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Originally Posted by Boraxo View Post
The real question is can you use your miles or points for travel that brings a value > .02 per mile/point? That is almost impossible now with miles in the UA/DL/AA/WN/B6 programs, excepting redemptions on *A, OW and ST partners. If those awards disappear then I expect people will give a closer look to the cash back cards, and Scott Kirby will continue to see his card #s tank.
I still think the constant comparison to "cash back" is a false choice in the current environment when the Chase family (Freedom and Sapphire) earns more miles than its UA card competition. I'm amazed by the number of posts in this thread along the lines of "UA miles are so worthless guess it's time to stop spending x thousands on my UA cards"... irrespective of the value of UA miles, CSR+CFU is a better cardset for spend. IMO the biggest change here are all the new hyper-lucrative 450 cards (which are their own interesting situation, as IIRC Chase took a $200MM quarterly loss when they introduced the CSR - talk about a loss leader!)
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Old Jul 3, 19, 2:06 pm
  #227  
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Where is the false choice when consumers are voting with their wallet in picking amongst the possible rebate currency vehicles out there for their own bank card use and not limited to any one industryís or firmís rebate currency? Consumers arenít stuck picking amongst false choices. Consumers are picking amongst real choices in bank card use, and UA management doesnít like real consumer choice in this regard.

UA management wants Chase to do UAís dirty work for it, all while hoping that Chase succumbs to UAís pressure or other pressures and that it helps make UAís devalued rebate currency look relatively better than it does now (or after the next devaluation this year) when the UA bank cardsí rebate currency is juxtaposed against the alternative rebate currencies earnable from non-UA bank card use.

The problem isnít false choices. The problem for UA is UAís devalued currency isnít all that an attractive choice for consumers with real choice.
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Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 3, 19 at 2:11 pm
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Old Jul 3, 19, 2:19 pm
  #228  
 
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I'm saying that when it comes to the CSR versus a Chase UA card, the value (or lack thereof) of United miles doesn't matter. The CSR is a better card, even if United miles were worth 10 cents each.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 2:24 pm
  #229  
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Originally Posted by findark View Post
I'm saying that when it comes to the CSR versus a Chase UA card, the value (or lack thereof) of United miles doesn't matter. The CSR is a better card, even if United miles were worth 10 cents each.
If UA miles were worth ten US cents each, I would be jumping out of Chase and all my other bank and airlines points and I would be jumping back into UA miles ó all while regretting that I canít resurrect all of my used up UA miles and UR points. Since that 10 cents per mile value would change behavior in such hypothetical situation, that 10 cents per mile value does matter. A change in real value really does change consumer behavior when it comes to markets that are at or above some level of competitiveness.
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Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 3, 19 at 2:31 pm
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Old Jul 3, 19, 2:28 pm
  #230  
 
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Originally Posted by findark View Post
I'm saying that when it comes to the CSR versus a Chase UA card, the value (or lack thereof) of United miles doesn't matter. The CSR is a better card, even if United miles were worth 10 cents each.
I don't know, that is a 10% return into travel funds, which would mean I only need to spend $10k on a CC for a $1k RT ticket to Hawaii, less when you consider bonus categories. If that offered that I wouldn't put spend on anything else, currently I have to spend than $22,223 on a CSR in just dining and travel for the same flight (66,667 UR spending at 1.5x on the Chase travel portal)
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Old Jul 3, 19, 3:14 pm
  #231  
 
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I think y'all are missing findark's point, which is that the CSR earns more UR points (which are 1-for-1 transferrable to UA MP) - so the value of UA miles itself is a nonfactor, since you can earn more UA miles outright from CSR than on any UA MP card, at least when it comes to the travel category.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 3:29 pm
  #232  
 
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Originally Posted by PsiFighter37 View Post
I think y'all are missing findark's point, which is that the CSR earns more UR points (which are 1-for-1 transferrable to UA MP) - so the value of UA miles itself is a nonfactor, since you can earn more UA miles outright from CSR than on any UA MP card, at least when it comes to the travel category.
Thank you. If UA miles were worth 10 cents, I would happily continue to tender my CSR for the UA tickets, transferring to earn 3x UA = 30% back on my purchase. I still would not put any spend on any Chase UA card!
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Old Jul 3, 19, 3:45 pm
  #233  
 
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Originally Posted by findark View Post
Thank you. If UA miles were worth 10 cents, I would happily continue to tender my CSR for the UA tickets, transferring to earn 3x UA = 30% back on my purchase. I still would not put any spend on any Chase UA card!
Even if CSR merely earned at par with the UA card, the fact that it includes a 1:1 transfer to UA miles necessarily means that the value of the CSR is at least as great, and there would be zero reason to use the UA card.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 3:47 pm
  #234  
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Originally Posted by jsloan View Post

Even if CSR merely earned at par with the UA card, the fact that it includes a 1:1 transfer to UA miles necessarily means that the value of the CSR is at least as great, and there would be zero reason to use the UA card.
The above statement is built intrinsically upon the fact that the poor relative value of UA miles (when compared to some other loyalty program currency/currencies) is what costs UA bank card business and that the relative value of UA miles matters.

Originally Posted by PsiFighter37 View Post
I think y'all are missing findark's point, which is that the CSR earns more UR points (which are 1-for-1 transferrable to UA MP) - so the value of UA miles itself is a nonfactor, since you can earn more UA miles outright from CSR than on any UA MP card, at least when it comes to the travel category.
The allowed transfer between UR points and UA miles is uni-directional at a 1-1 ratio. Whether or not the transfer allowance were unidirectional and whether or not it were at a 1-1 ratio, customersí still make decisions about which bank cards to use and how to use them and their points based on the relative value between the currencies that can be acquired directly or indirectly by bank card use.

The value of UA miles relative to UR points does matter in how consumers behave. It matters in relation to which and how bank cards and their earned points get acquired, used, retained.

Itís a UA pipe dream to believe that the relatively poor value of UA miles in the market of airline and bank card currencies isnít the driver behind UAís bank card situation and UAís whining about its arrangement with Chase.

If UA increased the value of United miles for most United customers, Chase would be providing UA a lot more bank card-related revenue than Chase already does. But UA doesnít seem intent upon increasing the value of United miles for most United customers. And UAís bank card business is paying the price for the diminished value of UA miles ó miles whose value has been deliberately devalued by the airline.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 3, 19 at 3:58 pm
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Old Jul 3, 19, 4:23 pm
  #235  
 
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All this PR on the Sapphire cards has made me research them for the first time. Will be signing up for the Reserve this week. Probably wouldn't have ever noticed how good the card is if it weren't for United complaining about it in the WSJ and starting this big press cycle. Good job United!

(Also cancelled the MP explorer card a couple years ago after getting the sign up bonus and PQD waiver for my wife reaching gold one year. Card had little other value then and don't ever see a reason I'd sign up again now)
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Old Jul 3, 19, 5:59 pm
  #236  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
The above statement is built intrinsically upon the fact that the poor relative value of UA miles (when compared to some other loyalty program currency/currencies) is what costs UA bank card business and that the relative value of UA miles matters.
No, itís based upon the idea that X + Y >= X, Y >= 0. Unless you think that the ability to transfer miles to other currencies somehow diminishes the CSR, it is simply true that a Ultimate Reward point is at least as valuable as a MileagePlus mile. Thus, if earnings from the card are equal, there is no reason to put money on the MileagePlus card except the PQD waiver and 25% off in-flight purchases.

The only way UA will get people to put more purchase on the MileagePlus card, when the CSR is available for a similar (net) annual fee and to a similar set of customers, is to raise the earning rate ó a lot.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 6:48 pm
  #237  
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Originally Posted by jsloan View Post

No, itís based upon the idea that X + Y >= X, Y >= 0. Unless you think that the ability to transfer miles to other currencies somehow diminishes the CSR, it is simply true that a Ultimate Reward point is at least as valuable as a MileagePlus mile.
Marginalize it (the importance of the relative value difference) as you may attempt, your above argument is built upon the fact that the relative value of UA miles matters ó which is what I keep saying.

Who disputes that a UR point is at least as valuable as a UA mile? Certainly not I. Iíve said consistently that UA has the UA card problem it deserves because UA decides to make their miles worth less for consumers than other rebate currencies available to consumers in the market.

UR points are more valuable than UA miles. UA made this true on its own. UA has various ways to try to fix this and ramp up its bank card business with Chase, but UA seems to prefer to put much or maybe even all of the cost of doing so onto Chase and Chase customers ó including on those customers whose Chase cards may be producing revenue, deferred or otherwise, for UA.

UA has shown repeatedly that it doesnít really mind devaluing the relative value of UA miles, even as the relatively poor value of UA miles is what cost UA enough UA card business to make UA whine like it has. Running up sign-up+use miles earnings has been played with repeatedly, but itís not the only way for UA to try to get back card business.

A substantially increased sign up and use boost in nominal terms for UA cards would be yet another acknowledgement that the relative value of UA miles matters and that the UA bank cards had become unattractive because of UAís devaluation of UA miles. Green Stamps tried gimmicks that looked to be substantial earnings increases in nominal terms, but they could only do it so many times before Green Stampsí customers wised up, moved on and didnít care to come back and believe any more promotional hype about the program and what you could earn and get out of the program.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 7:31 pm
  #238  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Marginalize it (the importance of the relative value difference) as you may attempt, your above argument is built upon the fact that the relative value of UA miles matters — which is what I keep saying.
No. It. Does. Not.
Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
I’ve said consistently that UA has the UA card problem it deserves because UA decides to make their miles worth less for consumers than other rebate currencies available to consumers in the market.
It is a simple law of economics that it is not possible for currency A to be more valuable than currency B when currency B can be changed, at will, to currency A at par. There’s even a name for it: Gresham’s Law. If UA MileagePlus miles could each be redeemed for a Maserati, as long as Ultimate Rewards points can be redeemed 1:1 for UA MileagePlus miles, Ultimate Rewards points would still be more valuable.

Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
UR points are more valuable than UA miles. UA made this true on its own.
That is false. Chase actually did that by creating a convertible currency at a 1:1 ratio. Similarly, Ultimate Rewards points are more valuable than Flying Blue points, Hyatt points, or any of the other currencies they can be converted into.

The only thing UA could have done to prevent this would have been to refuse to allow UR to MP at 1:1.

This is a completely different argument than saying whether or not the Explorer card could ever be a good value. It’s possible for the Explorer card to be more valuable than the CSR, but only if the multipliers are greater than you’d get from Ultimate Rewards. I posted a suggested chart earlier in this thread; I won’t bother doing it again.


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Old Jul 3, 19, 7:31 pm
  #239  
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Originally Posted by jsloan View Post
...
The only way UA will get people to put more purchase on the MileagePlus card, when the CSR is available for a similar (net) annual fee and to a similar set of customers, is to raise the earning rate ó a lot.
i actually really like the idea of the chase/UA travelbank card because you earn UA $ís that can be redeemed on UA and still earn PQM/PQS/PQD when redeeming those at any amount. The problem with that card, and main reason I still use the CSR to purchase tickets is purely for the superior IRROPS travel protection that the CSR offers.

Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
...
Who disputes that a UR point is at least as valuable as a UA mile? Certainly not I. Iíve said consistently that UA has the UA card problem it deserves because UA decides to make their miles worth less for consumers than other rebate currencies available to consumers in the market.
...
Even if you are spending your UR points exclusively on UA, the flexibility of the CSR UR points alone is what makes it a valuable option.
People simply like the idea that they could convert their points to something else even if they still convert them back to UA miles.
It's like cash vs a gift card.

Of course, the UR points would lose their value were they to lose their ability to convert to UA miles or other parters.
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Old Jul 3, 19, 7:59 pm
  #240  
 
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Originally Posted by Boraxo View Post
I think you are comparing apples and oranges (or in this case, RDM from flights v. miles earned through spend) though it is hard to tell.

To use your example, I sometimes earn close to 75k RDM from actual BIS flying (though of course the RDM are now based on the price of the ticket rather than distance). I can then use the 75k RDM for a one-way TATL business class seat that might cost $1.5-2k if purchased with cash (though best fares are usually RT). So on a $6k RT business class TATL/TPAC ticket that is an ROI of 25-33%, and even better as my employer buys the ticket but I get the reward. The RDM earn and burn has nothing to do with the card you use to pay the fare.

The analysis for credit card spend is completely different and has nothing to do with flying. Your choices are a 2% cash back card or miles or points in a specific program. To use your example, $50k spending (which, for might be close to annual spend on non-bonus categories for those of us who don't "manufacture" spend) would earn a cash reward of $1000. Or it could earn 50k UA miles, 50k Chase points (75k if you do Chase Freedom-> CSP/CSR point conversion), 50k Amex, or 50k points in many air and hotel programs. It sounds like you would use those points to buy a $500 home depot gift card.

Which of these alternatives earns the highest or best ROI for your spend? Personally I would take the 50k Chase or Amex points because I can transfer them to a partner where I value the air travel at >.02 per point. But if that was not the case, I would certainly take $1000 (from 2% card) > $750 Chase travel portal credit > $700 (Chase WN card) > $500 gift card. And I would definitely not take 50k in UA, AA or Skypesos when I could get 50k Chase UR or Amex points that could be transferred to many programs.

The real question is can you use your miles or points for travel that brings a value > .02 per mile/point? That is almost impossible now with miles in the UA/DL/AA/WN/B6 programs, excepting redemptions on *A, OW and ST partners. If those awards disappear then I expect people will give a closer look to the cash back cards, and Scott Kirby will continue to see his card #s tank.
As we've all said, it's all about the realization of value in your loyalty "points"; which is sometimes equated to monetization ($X value per mile).

I have never, and would never, switch UR points to any other program. Their redemption system is already good. I have used them for travel that is convenient for my family, which really points to the positive of UR for travel redemptions. I haven't bothered to calculate it, but I know it exceeds explorer purchases into miles.

I only use Home Depot gift cards as an example because it is opaque. I know exactly the exchange rate for the fake currency into the real usable currency. Obviously there are other ways to see that value realized through Merchandise rewards etc. Otherwise you are talking about UA miles exchanging into something where they control both sides, clouding the value/monetization discussion. In the new world order (NWO), I pay 200k UA miles for this RT biz class award ticket because...UA says it costs that much. The actual underlying value doesn't need to be that - its only because they control the exchange and the delivery of the purchased item.

And yes I know that is also true in UR. We don't get a bonus of 1.5x for travel redemption because it is all so clear how Chase is working the supply chain. They are buying low and selling high just like any sane person would.

Lastly fully agree about CC vs. flying is a completely different equation. Would I use CC spend for home depot cards? No way no how. But as me and my family gets tired of me being gone, using miles from flying to realize something immediately valuable for my family now dulls the pain just a little bit.

Last edited by katan; Jul 3, 19 at 8:15 pm
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