What happened to the a350 order?
Jan 5, 2021, 9:31 am
#181
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SRQ, PDX
Programs: UA 1 MM, AA, DL
Posts: 929
Jan 5, 2021, 10:44 am
#182
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: UA 1K 1MM, AA, DL
Posts: 7,418
Veritas: Range of A350, 787 and 777x according to United Airlines
Jan 5, 2021, 10:53 am
#183
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL, OZ, AC, AS, AA, BA, Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott, IHG
Posts: 19,896
I have speculated for some time that UA is not particularly interested in the A359 with current engines, as its performance is sufficiently close to the existing fleet mix (789/78X/77W plus fully-depreciated 77E) that it does not justify the capex for inducting an entirely new fleet/engine... even pre-COVID. Now, with what will in all likelihood be a shrinking widebody fleet in coming years, coupled with a reduction in fleet capex, I think the A350 order, as currently contemplated, is a non-starter.
Previously, some industry observers projected Airbus would announce an A350neo with the forthcoming RR Ultrafan geared large turbofan, with a target EIS of 2025/26. An A350neo would be expected to deliver high-single-digit improved economics over the current A350 and 787 lineup, and around 25% over the 77E.
This week, RR announced they are temporarily suspending development of the Ultrafan due to a lack of an aircraft partner, which suggests to me Airbus is putting the 350neo on ice for a few years. This is expected given the likely multi-year downturn in international/long haul travel, reduced airline capex and depressed demand for large WB aircraft.
Based on that, I would expect United to further kick the can down the road on its A350 order until late in this decade, as it has limited options to get out of its RR engine contract without a prohibitive penalty. My understanding is Airbus is willing to play ball with UA on revising the 350 order (e.g., conversion to 321LR/XLR, A220) but since the Airbus narrowbody line lacks an RR engine offering, such a modification does nothing for the contract.
Previously, some industry observers projected Airbus would announce an A350neo with the forthcoming RR Ultrafan geared large turbofan, with a target EIS of 2025/26. An A350neo would be expected to deliver high-single-digit improved economics over the current A350 and 787 lineup, and around 25% over the 77E.
This week, RR announced they are temporarily suspending development of the Ultrafan due to a lack of an aircraft partner, which suggests to me Airbus is putting the 350neo on ice for a few years. This is expected given the likely multi-year downturn in international/long haul travel, reduced airline capex and depressed demand for large WB aircraft.
Based on that, I would expect United to further kick the can down the road on its A350 order until late in this decade, as it has limited options to get out of its RR engine contract without a prohibitive penalty. My understanding is Airbus is willing to play ball with UA on revising the 350 order (e.g., conversion to 321LR/XLR, A220) but since the Airbus narrowbody line lacks an RR engine offering, such a modification does nothing for the contract.
Jan 5, 2021, 11:29 am
#186
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,448
No, but there is pre-merger contract in which United committed to Trent XWB engines for its A350 order, plus "TotalCare" service (which itself is very lucrative). These contracts often have onerous cancellation/rescission provisions. I don't profess to know anything about the specifics of a proprietary, confidential business agreement between UA and RR, but at the time of the AIP (12/2009) United was barely four years removed from bankruptcy and in the midst of another restructuring, posting a billion-dollar annual loss, while publicly courting a merger with US or CO. At the same time, RR was booking lots of orders for the 787 and A350, and hadn't yet encountered the reliability woes associated with the Trent 1000 fan blade cracking. Comparatively, RR was in a stronger bargaining position. It would not surprise me if the deal included significant, rather ironclad penalties if UA elects to walk away.
The 787s are all GEnx-powered. Some discussion took place re: the Trent 1000 TEN for the 787-10s, but that went nowhere.
The 787s are all GEnx-powered. Some discussion took place re: the Trent 1000 TEN for the 787-10s, but that went nowhere.
Last edited by EWR764; Jan 5, 2021 at 11:47 am
Jan 5, 2021, 11:58 am
#187
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BOS/SFO
Programs: United 4MM GS, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 307
No, but there is pre-merger contract in which United committed to Trent XWB engines for its A350 order, plus "TotalCare" service (which itself is very lucrative). These contracts often have onerous cancellation/rescission provisions. I don't profess to know anything about the specifics of a proprietary, confidential business agreement between UA and RR, but at the time of the AIP (12/2009) United was barely four years removed from bankruptcy and in the midst of another restructuring, posting a billion-dollar annual loss, while publicly courting a merger with US or CO. At the same time, RR was booking lots of orders for the 787 and A350, and hadn't yet encountered the reliability woes associated with the Trent 1000 fan blade cracking. Comparatively, RR was in a stronger bargaining position. It would not surprise me if the deal included significant, rather ironclad penalties if UA elects to walk away.
The 787s are all GEnx-powered. Some discussion took place re: the Trent 1000 TEN for the 787-10s, but that went nowhere.
The 787s are all GEnx-powered. Some discussion took place re: the Trent 1000 TEN for the 787-10s, but that went nowhere.
Jan 5, 2021, 12:09 pm
#188
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,448
In 2019, StandardAero at SKF won the TotalCare contract for the RB211 fleet through its end of service life, and UA sends its motors there for overhauls.
Jan 5, 2021, 1:18 pm
#189
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,184
Perhaps this? Source says it's from 2018 UA presentation
Veritas: Range of A350, 787 and 777x according to United Airlines
Veritas: Range of A350, 787 and 777x according to United Airlines
Jan 5, 2021, 1:43 pm
#190
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Honolulu Harbor
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 15,016
For some reason, I like the take-off on this plane more than any other.
Jan 5, 2021, 5:08 pm
#191
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,771
Jan 5, 2021, 7:47 pm
#192
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,448
Iberia does some RB211 overhauls in Spain (in the past a lot more) but the exclusive TotalCare contract is now held by StandardAero. Some engines not on TotalCare will continue to be servied by Iberia at MAD, but all TotalCare RB211s (including UA) are serviced by StandardAero at SKF.
Nov 29, 2022, 12:24 pm
#193
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Programs: United 1K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 515
Bumping this old thread. As far as I can tell there has been no movement on this order. The summer 2021 narrow body order had no impact. The only other news, dated October 2022, seems to be speculation of “triple-digit widebody aircraft order that's reportedly come down to a two-horse race between the Airbus A350 and Boeing's B787 Dreamliner”
Nov 29, 2022, 2:45 pm
#194
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: USA
Programs: UA Platinum, 1MM
Posts: 13,460
Would love to hear an update. A350 is better for passengers if they don't decide to go with the awful new 10 across configuration from the current 9. Wider seats and traditional window shades are superior but I know the dimming windows are now an option and supposedly newest darker generation (will see...).