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United Airlines Accuses Rogue Flight Attendants of Fraud

United Airlines Accuses Rogue Flight Attendants of Fraud

Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:05 pm
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United Airlines Accuses Rogue Flight Attendants of Fraud

Note that this article is primarily about senior flight attendants selling prime trip assignments to more junior attendants, and not about selling employee pass travel.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unite...153535362.html
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 9:07 pm
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Why are there mandatory retirement ages for pilots but not flight attendants, despite flight attendants being there "primarily for your safety"? There's obviously a clear relationship between age and physical performance, reaction times, etc. and that would apply equally to pilots and flight attendants.

Not to mention that cases of fraud like this seem to be primarily committed by the more senior employees.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 10:19 pm
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Originally Posted by sincx
Why are there mandatory retirement ages for pilots but not flight attendants, despite flight attendants being there "primarily for your safety"? There's obviously a clear relationship between age and physical performance, reaction times, etc. and that would apply equally to pilots and flight attendants.
Apply equally to pilots and flight attendants?

No one, including you, seriously believes there is the same level of physical performance and reaction times needed for a pilot and a flight attendant.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 7:05 am
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Originally Posted by sincx
Why are there mandatory retirement ages for pilots but not flight attendants, despite flight attendants being there "primarily for your safety"? There's obviously a clear relationship between age and physical performance, reaction times, etc. and that would apply equally to pilots and flight attendants.

Not to mention that cases of fraud like this seem to be primarily committed by the more senior employees.

The history of mandatory pilot retirement age is an interesting story. A handshake deal between the an airline CEO (AA) and the head of the FAA many years ago was the reason it was instituted (to lower pilot costs, because the highest paid pilots would be forced to retire at 60.) It was raised to 65 in late 2007 to match ICAO, and there were political dealings then as well.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 7:16 am
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Originally Posted by sincx
Not to mention that cases of fraud like this seem to be primarily committed by the more senior employees.
Well duh, the less senior employees don't have the routes worth selling...

As for mandatory retirement age, FA's aren't there to do anything physically demanding related to your safety, just give instructions.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 7:38 am
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Not saying I condone this practice, but I can easily see why this happens in reality - junior FAs view this as a low-cost way of visiting bucket-list/iconic destinations (see social media to see what I mean).
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 9:29 am
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Originally Posted by sincx
Why are there mandatory retirement ages for pilots but not flight attendants, despite flight attendants being there "primarily for your safety"? ... Not to mention that cases of fraud like this seem to be primarily committed by the more senior employees.
I think you have a fault in your logic. There's no relation between the age of senior flight attendants and this kind of fraud. The opportunity for fraud is created by the union seniority bidding system, not age. Do a thought experiment: consider the effect of a hypothetical mandatory FA retirement age. Pick several different possible cutoff ages among the population of 50,000 United flight attendants. No matter what age you pick, there would still need to be 50,000 flight attendants (older retired ones would be replaced with younger ones). But you still have the same situation: 50,000 flight attendants and a route bidding system based strictly on seniority. You have the same opportunity for this kind of fraud, whereby the more senior FAs have an opportunity to sell their bids to FAs of lower seniority.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 10:36 am
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Originally Posted by seenitall
Note that this article is primarily about senior flight attendants selling prime trip assignments to more junior attendants, and not about selling employee pass travel.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unite...153535362.html
While I do not condone fraud, there was/is a potential upside to this practice from a passenger perspective. If a FA would prefer "trading favors" to move off a route with a FA that wants to work the route (be it for better pay/hours/locations), the passenger is apt to receive better service. I know some might think it is a stretch, but a FA that would prefer not being there vs. one that does makes a huge difference. Just my opinion, I may be wrong.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 11:00 am
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Another consequence of the union-forced seniority system.
IMHO, staff each flight 50/50: half the crew seniority-based, half from the general pool of FAs.
Would most likely make for a more consistently pleasant inflight experience on those $10K+ J-class longhaul flights.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 1:07 pm
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Originally Posted by Steve M
I think you have a fault in your logic. There's no relation between the age of senior flight attendants and this kind of fraud. The opportunity for fraud is created by the union seniority bidding system, not age. Do a thought experiment: consider the effect of a hypothetical mandatory FA retirement age. Pick several different possible cutoff ages among the population of 50,000 United flight attendants. No matter what age you pick, there would still need to be 50,000 flight attendants (older retired ones would be replaced with younger ones). But you still have the same situation: 50,000 flight attendants and a route bidding system based strictly on seniority. You have the same opportunity for this kind of fraud, whereby the more senior FAs have an opportunity to sell their bids to FAs of lower seniority.
I definitely see your point. But it is typically the older flight attendants that are more jaded and sick of their jobs and perhaps more likely to sell off routes they're not so excited about, or more likely to break company rules if they've developed enough spite for the company over the many years of employment. Anecdotal speculation indeed, but....Keep the workforce fresh, happy and excited to serve and I think it is a win-win all around.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 2:11 pm
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Originally Posted by cesco.g
Another consequence of the union-forced seniority system.
IMHO, staff each flight 50/50: half the crew seniority-based, half from the general pool of FAs.
Would most likely make for a more consistently pleasant inflight experience on those $10K+ J-class longhaul flights.
Exactly. We don't have to look any further than the union-forced seniority bidding system.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 2:48 pm
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Can we at least have some resemblance of objectivity on the headline that the AFA is fully on board with it the headline might be misunderstood by those who didnt read the article thinking its another evil management trying to destroy unions type of ordeal
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 2:52 pm
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Randomly assigning crews to routes will lead to all kinds of unhappy crews. Hence a bidding process. Some FAs can try to get flights where they go home at night. Others get flights where they work the fewest days on the month but travel further. What other 'currency' could be used other than seniority? There are thousands of basically interchangeable FAs.
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 2:57 pm
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Originally Posted by bluedemon211
While I do not condone fraud, there was/is a potential upside to this practice from a passenger perspective. If a FA would prefer "trading favors" to move off a route with a FA that wants to work the route (be it for better pay/hours/locations), the passenger is apt to receive better service. I know some might think it is a stretch, but a FA that would prefer not being there vs. one that does makes a huge difference. Just my opinion, I may be wrong.
Im fully on board with the system of trading for items people actually desire, and we accept the world is a society of favoritism, so something like buying said colleague a nice dinner or sending Xmas gifts to their kids as a gesture of gratuity is totally fine, but not all the way to straight up pay 4 play

in other words, what Dr Dre did is still partially *acceptable* but not Felicity or Lori
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Old Mar 27, 2019, 3:55 pm
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Originally Posted by restlessinRNO
Exactly. We don't have to look any further than the union-forced seniority bidding system.
Why are all the "jaded, senior" crew bidding on these destinations? I'm guessing it's less work, more money, or some combination. Maybe the fix is to pay someone their salary regardless of destinations, flight times, etc.
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