Jan 4, 2021, 1:37 am
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
This is an archive thread, the archive thread is https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/1960195-b737max-cleared-faa-resume-passenger-flights-when-will-ua-max-flights-resume.html
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
READ BEFORE POSTING
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
This thread has engendered some strongly felt opinions and a great tendency to wander into many peripherally related topics. By all normal FT moderation standards, this thread would have been permanently closed long ago ( and numerous members receiving disciplinary actions).
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
B737MAX Recertification - Archive
Mar 13, 2019, 12:52 am
#301
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,965
A great deal of the world (including the US) is prone to reacting emotionally and ignoring facts in order to jump on bandwagons. The US was the lone ally in 1918 that said the Versailles Treaty was a bad idea but hey, it's bad to be a loner ...
The people I know at FAA or supporting them take air safety seriously and are much less political than other departments or agencies in the government.
We as travelers must always make our own decisions based on our own evaluation of what's in our best interests but that doesn't mean the FAA isn't wrapping their heads around a reasonable response. A lot of the reactions I see on the board are far from reasonable. Understandable but not based on Reason. In addition, I would bet very few (if any) of us on this forum know what the FAA is doing.
The people I know at FAA or supporting them take air safety seriously and are much less political than other departments or agencies in the government.
We as travelers must always make our own decisions based on our own evaluation of what's in our best interests but that doesn't mean the FAA isn't wrapping their heads around a reasonable response. A lot of the reactions I see on the board are far from reasonable. Understandable but not based on Reason. In addition, I would bet very few (if any) of us on this forum know what the FAA is doing.
In the days of questioning our governments and businesses, you wonder how decisions are made. Why sometimes we make fact-based decisions (like the FAA in this case, it seems) and why sometimes we let fear dictate things? How much fact and risk have to be there for precautionary actions to kick in?
Mar 13, 2019, 12:54 am
#302
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: DSM, BKK or anywhere with an airport
Programs: UA 2P, HH Gold
Posts: 1,018
I asked this upthread and I'm not sure I was answered directly, so here goes. If you're a pilot flying the Max and the MCAS engages and you're thinking "whoa, we don't want the MCAS here, this is not going to end well"; can you simply reach up, flip a toggle switch, and fly the damn thing manually ?
Mar 13, 2019, 2:16 am
#303
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 111
I asked this upthread and I'm not sure I was answered directly, so here goes. If you're a pilot flying the Max and the MCAS engages and you're thinking "whoa, we don't want the MCAS here, this is not going to end well"; can you simply reach up, flip a toggle switch, and fly the damn thing manually ?
Incidentally, these stab trim cutout switches are in the same location on the NG and Max.
Mar 13, 2019, 2:21 am
#304
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 111
Of course, it's a given that it should be investigated *why* the Max keeps having stab trim runaways (if that is indeed the cause in these incidents).
Mar 13, 2019, 2:31 am
#305
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: DSM, BKK or anywhere with an airport
Programs: UA 2P, HH Gold
Posts: 1,018
That being said, is it a potential design flaw, a potential lack of training, or possibly a mixture of both? Or, as someone suggest in the master accident thread, what if you flip the switches and the MCAS stays engaged ?
Mar 13, 2019, 5:26 am
#306
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: Hertz PC
Posts: 657
These are my predictions.
1. The black boxes will be examined by European authorities. Most cases would be done by NTSB for countries that don't have own equipment. But with the perception that Boeing, FAA, NTSB are in bed together that would not be smart.
2. In the end it will be chalked up to pilot error. Improper reaction to an automated response by the plane.
1. The black boxes will be examined by European authorities. Most cases would be done by NTSB for countries that don't have own equipment. But with the perception that Boeing, FAA, NTSB are in bed together that would not be smart.
2. In the end it will be chalked up to pilot error. Improper reaction to an automated response by the plane.
Mar 13, 2019, 6:33 am
#307
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 4,122
In contrast to what was posted as a quote from an AA pilot above, I spoke with a UA 737 pilot who has flown a MAX9. He has no concern at all about flying them. They are well aware of what is suspected to have happened on the Lion Air flight and know exactly how to deal with that kind of situation should it ever happen.
Mar 13, 2019, 7:18 am
#308
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
In contrast to what was posted as a quote from an AA pilot above, I spoke with a UA 737 pilot who has flown a MAX9. He has no concern at all about flying them. They are well aware of what is suspected to have happened on the Lion Air flight and know exactly how to deal with that kind of situation should it ever happen.
What scares me, and a lot of other folks who know a lot more than I do, is that whatever Boeing did after the Lion Air crash appears not to have prevented a crash that looks very similar....
Mar 13, 2019, 7:21 am
#309
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,115
At this point, with the limited amount of confirmed information available, I share this speculation/prediction. It may very well be AF447 all over again, but obviously with very different circumstances. Pilot error won't be the only cause though - there is never a single cause, and deficiencies for Boeing and the operating airlines will be found as well - but it will be the main cause. The way the pilot unions are reacting at this moment also indicates it's going towards pilot error. Note I may change my opinion when new details come to light that are not known as of right now.
Mar 13, 2019, 7:27 am
#310
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Programs: HH Diamond, Marriott Titanium/LTG, IHG Platinum
Posts: 1,921
In contrast to what was posted as a quote from an AA pilot above, I spoke with a UA 737 pilot who has flown a MAX9. He has no concern at all about flying them. They are well aware of what is suspected to have happened on the Lion Air flight and know exactly how to deal with that kind of situation should it ever happen.
Mar 13, 2019, 7:42 am
#311
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 4,122
I have a friend, rocket scientist, also a private pilot. When you fly with him, he inspects everything, its not a curserary inspection. He takes his check list seriously. Anything looks odd, you don't go. And not to besmirch the UA pilot who you talked to, I am a little concerned by the attitude of "well I don't know what happened, or if it will happen again, but if I have a problem with the plane's auto trim system I am just going to shut it off, so don't need to worry about it" I would assume that ET, which is a well respected, safe airline, told its pilots the same thing that the UA pilot would know (i.e. what Boeing sent arround) and unless there is no overlapping failure mode, it did not do a lot of good....
What scares me, and a lot of other folks who know a lot more than I do, is that whatever Boeing did after the Lion Air crash appears not to have prevented a crash that looks very similar....
What scares me, and a lot of other folks who know a lot more than I do, is that whatever Boeing did after the Lion Air crash appears not to have prevented a crash that looks very similar....
Mar 13, 2019, 7:50 am
#313
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
These are my predictions.
1. The black boxes will be examined by European authorities. Most cases would be done by NTSB for countries that don't have own equipment. But with the perception that Boeing, FAA, NTSB are in bed together that would not be smart.
2. In the end it will be chalked up to pilot error. Improper reaction to an automated response by the plane.
1. The black boxes will be examined by European authorities. Most cases would be done by NTSB for countries that don't have own equipment. But with the perception that Boeing, FAA, NTSB are in bed together that would not be smart.
2. In the end it will be chalked up to pilot error. Improper reaction to an automated response by the plane.
Pilot training appears to be the deficiency here..... but again, we will see what the data recorders reveal.
Mar 13, 2019, 8:22 am
#314
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston MA
Programs: UA 1K/1.5 million miler, SU Gold, JL Sapphire
Posts: 529
One accident happens. Regrettable, for sure. But then for SURE Boeing won't let something like this happen again, right? Or so goes the popular logic. For sure Boeing cannot control all airline operators, but still, in the public's mind, someone is on the top of this: memos are being written, pilots retrained, software modified if need be...
Oh, and there is also the fact that LionAir is a foreign ultra low cost airlines in a country with a spotty record for safety. Again, maybe just optics here, but it reduce the amount of flack for Boeing that got off easily.
The problem here is that it happened again. So now people aren't so sure if anyone did anything about that problem. And this happened to an airline with a pretty good track record for safety. So, then people take a look at UA and other airlines and stipulate that if it was allowed to happen again for a network airline it may happen to "their airline" too.
And all that was required to create that cascade of grounding is one major govt, China (which also happens to be trying to sell a competitor to the B737, namely the C919) to ground its B737 MAX fleet. Public opinion in different countries then had all they needed to require their govt to do the same.
There is a lot of optics there independently of the technical merit of the case. Perhaps we will find that indeed the two cases were related, that Boeing slept on the switch and tried to cover up a flaw so as to not to prevent sales. Or we may find out that this was overblown out of all proportions. Or something in the middle. It is simply too soon to tell. But for sure, right now, unless you are the US and have a vested interest protecting your national champion the easy call is for govt to interdict their airspace to the B737. And this interdiction will only be removed is an authority perceived as independent - not Boeing, not the FAA (whether justified or not) - says that the B737 MAX should be returned to the skies, and under which conditions.
In the meantime, I am just as human as anyone else. I checked my upcoming flights. Some are on B737 800 and 900, in a month. Can't say it makes me feel reassured.
Mar 13, 2019, 9:10 am
#315
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Washington DC
Programs: Delta DM CO PE OZ GE AMTRAK
Posts: 524
I have a friend, rocket scientist, also a private pilot. When you fly with him, he inspects everything, its not a curserary inspection. He takes his check list seriously. Anything looks odd, you don't go. And not to besmirch the UA pilot who you talked to, I am a little concerned by the attitude of "well I don't know what happened, or if it will happen again, but if I have a problem with the plane's auto trim system I am just going to shut it off, so don't need to worry about it" I would assume that ET, which is a well respected, safe airline, told its pilots the same thing that the UA pilot would know (i.e. what Boeing sent arround) and unless there is no overlapping failure mode, it did not do a lot of good....
What scares me, and a lot of other folks who know a lot more than I do, is that whatever Boeing did after the Lion Air crash appears not to have prevented a crash that looks very similar....
What scares me, and a lot of other folks who know a lot more than I do, is that whatever Boeing did after the Lion Air crash appears not to have prevented a crash that looks very similar....