Often1

This was UA and UA's safety & security policy, filed with FAA and therefore functionally required by FAA, is that seatbacks must be in their full upright position prior to landing. In this case the FA screwed up quite badly.

The rest of the debate as to whether this is a good policy is irrelevant.

notquiteaff

txaggiemiles

eng3

Yes agree, the policy is the policy. Whether it is a good policy is another question.

Interesting point. I suppose there are UA rules and then there are FAA rules. I don't know how far a FA is required to go to enforce the rules. Or how far they have to ignore the rules to be negligent. I suppose that would be a jury question.

I actually remember my first two trips in a polaris seat hearing multiple reminders on the shoulder belt. But on my last two trips, I specifically remember hearing no reminders about the shoulder belt. I had wondered if people were just remembering to put it on or if FA's were forgetting.


I interpreted the OP's post as there was a finding that the seat belts were either too complicated to use or broken so the passengers were stuck in their seats and couldn't get out. Reading the OP and your replies, I see there was different meaning. Yes the seatbelt contributed to the drownings because the plane was upside down and flooding so their heads were in the water faster. I didn't catch anything in the report stating why the ones who died did not take off their belts, (perhaps due to other injuries?). I just noted the survivors were able to take their belts off. However if they did not wear their belts, I would ASSUME that they would have been thrown from their seats and PROBABLY would have died before having a chance to drown. Ofcourse it does come down to luck. I recall another crash where a survivor said that he had his wife and himself take off their seat belts so they wouldn't be stuck and inflate their vests to help cushion the impact. He did the exact opposite of what is recommended and survived but his wife did not.

narvik

I am flabbergasted by the accounts in this thread. That any UA crew would allow a passenger to land in the lay-flat position is mind-boggling [to me].
Simply can't recall ANY UA flight where they didn't check multiple times before landing that everyone was buckled in and in an upright seating-position.
Amazing.

s0ssos

Wait, isn't that you fly UA? They never cease to amaze?

bocastephen

Actually it has been tested - the safest position is laying down, or being in a reclining position, as the body can handle far more sudden G forces in a reclining position vs sitting upright - however - with everyone's seat in a reclined or flat position, getting out of the aircraft quickly and safely after the accident you survived by being in the reclining position, is infinitely more difficult for you and everyone else. The FAA decided that somewhat-reduced initial survival with everyone upright vs the chaos, injuries and death from trying to scramble over, under, around reclined seats, or being trapped in a damaged or burning aircraft, is the better option of the two.

s0ssos

Wow, thanks for that info. Didn't know that.

I guess the problem with having 2 types of procedures (one first premium class,where you can lie flat, another for economy) is that it would just seem blatantly unfair and discriminatory. As in people up front can survive better than people in back.

YadiMolina

United flies about 400,000 passengers a day. Surely a few seat backs slip through the cracks, as it is mostly a trivial matter (excepting that a lie-flat is egregious), and no flight attendant (nor any of us) perform at perfection. This was a mistake, but one incurring an infinitesimal risk.

Sykes

I've been on MANY UA flights where there was turbulence towards the end of the flight so the flight attendants were unable to do their pre-landing checks. It's really not all that uncommon.

There are no indications that this is the case here, but who knows--there are a number of reasonable explanations for how this could have happened that don't require indicting the flight attendants.

Repooc17

Not on UA (a domestic Chinese flight) but this guy was the worst - I think he was non-rev. I was one of the first to board this 7am flight, and he was already there, seat nearly flat, tray table out with food and drinks. This guy must be connected to the airlines, as FAs bent over backward and served to his every need, and took his unreasonable demands. Finally, an attentive FA helped move his seat to the sitting position as we taxied and lined up for take off. Not even a minute after in the air, he's back in the sleeping position, and finally the whole episode repeated when we landed. I would have removed him if I was the working for the airlines.

trooper

The Business class seats on NZ long haul aircraft may be reclined for take off and landing...… they make that quite clear onboard. They can't be flat because they are "flip over" seats when being turned into the bed...but the full recline available is fine at any time.....

kale73

Does the minuscule amount of recline availble in most UA 'Y' seats really make a difference?

Analyses of survivable crashes have consistently shown that the least popular seats on the plane (i.e., rear middles) are statistically the "safest" in a crash. As the old saying goes "How often do you hear about a plane backing into a mountainside?"

eng3

Please quote a source or two. If be very interested in reading about the details of this test

I can barely get out of a window as it is. When reclined I think if need every one out of the row to have any chance

Risk of occurrence is infinitesimal. I'd argue the o impact of an occurrence is not. Your could say the same thing about lap babies or not wearing seatbelts. Infinitesimal risk of occurrence, impact is not

Sykes

Assuming there weren't extenuating circumstances that prevented the flight attendants from doing pre-landing checks (like turbulence), then it was a mistake that shouldn't have happened, but it's not a huge deal. The FAA and airline policies and procedures are designed under the assumption that they will be executed by humans, and that humans will make mistakes from time-to-time. It doesn't hurt to report any such issues so that if there is a pattern of mistakes then the pattern can be identified and addressed, but a single mistake on a single flight isn't the end of the world.