augias84

I am looking to book Frankfurt-Nagoya (either with a stop in Tokyo, or the direct LH-operated flight, LH736/NH6010); and then HND-FRA as a return (NH flight 203). United is returning an absurd price of around $10k. LH and NH offer this flight for around $3300 in business class.
I know it's often not possible to issue a ticket on UA-stock if there are no UA-operated segments, but interestingly, if I search FRA-HND round trip on united.com, the price is $3300 -- just two ANA flights without any UA segment either (provided that I return NH223). If i specifically want NH203 on the return (I have to take this specific flight) the price is $4300. (not sure why in this case united.com only shows the Z fare, not the P, which is actually available on the NH and LH sites)
Would a UA agent or a travel agent be able to issue the first itinerary (with travel to Nagoya) on UA stock? Or is my only option for ticketing this with United booking the itinerary I found online and then add on travel to Nagoya booked as a separate ticket?

cfischer

TerryK

Most deeply discounted fares must be plated by host carrier.

jsloan

There's your answer. UA won't be able to issue the P fare. Although NH, UA, and LH are all close partners, Europe to Asia travel isn't included in the JVs*, which is likely why they didn't include UA in the list of plating carriers.

Also, I've found that United.com will not show *A codeshare flights -- an NH flight operated by LH will only appear as the LH code. That's likely part of what's causing the $10K price on the flights you want -- there's probably a combinability restriction that prevents you from using a discount round-trip fare for an LH-coded flight together with an NH-coded flight.

* Without connecting North American travel, anyway.

augias84

thank you so much for the replies!
I am actually seeing FRA-HND-FRA as a round trip P-fare on united.com, on the dates I need (outbound Nov 11, return Nov 20). The specific flight I want for HND-FRA is only available in Z on united.com (might be ANA restricting the inventory somehow, maybe that departure is more popular), but the outbound FRA-HND is available in P, and a different, later HND-FRA NH-operated non-stop flight on Nov 20 is available in P as well, all on united.com). None of these flights are UA codeshares... so united.com definitely shows some deeply discounted P-fares for flights operated by ANA (without any United segment in the itinerary)
I am wondering why the FRA-NGO flight won't show at a reasonable price. Maybe it's the possibility that @jsloan is raising, that LH376/NH6010 is operated by Lufthansa and thus united.com only sees it by the LH flight number, and combining the LH and NH flights causes a price glitch? If that's the case, then perhaps calling will be the solution, and I will give that a try.

Looking at the fare rules for the flights that do show up in P on united.com-- NH224 outbound, NH223 return -- it says "no restrictions" under sales restrictions - the other stuff looks like the normal stuff on P fares (has to be bought 60 days out, minimum stay, the usual). The fare basis is indeed PRNJDE.
@TerryK, did you find that restriction ("tickets must be issued on the stock of NH or LH") specifically on the LH376 Lufthansa-operated flight? It does not appear on the P-fares I'm looking at luckily -- if some flights have this restriction but not others, then it would make sense that they would be excluded on united.com, while others do show up.

edit: I had trouble deciphering the fare rules about open-jaws -- since FRA-NGO, HND-FRA would be an open jaw -- and whether that would affect the pricing too -- this is the language in the fare rules for the FRA-HND-FRA round trip about open-jaws -- I don't have a good way to access what the fare rules would be on the FRA-NGO flight, since the P fare doesn't show up on united.com
END-ON-END NOT PERMITTED. SIDE TRIPS PERMITTED. APPLICABLE ADD-ON CONSTRUCTION IS ADDRESSED IN MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS - CATEGORY 23. OPEN JAWS FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS -TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS. A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS PERMITTED. MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/LESS THAN MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE COMPONENT. PROVIDED - THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE WITHIN -WITHIN AREA 2 OR WITHIN AREA 3 COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -RN TYPE FARES FOR CARRIER LH/NH/LX/OS IN ANY RULE IN THIS TARIFF. ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS -TO FORM ROUND TRIPS -TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS PERMITTED. PROVIDED - COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -RN TYPE FARES FOR CARRIER LH/NH/LX/OS IN ANY RULE IN THIS TARIFF.

cfischer

FRA-NGO/HND-FRA should be perfectly doable with these fare provisions.

dvs7310

I'd call up a real travel agent and ask them if they can plate it on 016 stock. It seems possible from the fare rules you pasted, though I don't have an active Expertflyer sub right now to double check it myself meaning I also can't see the FRA-NGO fare rules.

I've also seen pricing on United.com and vice-versa NH.com to be buggy for certain flight times on the others' metal in the past but I didn't care about the plating code so I just bought them from Expedia in those cases. Sometimes I got 016 and sometimes I got 205, which one was irrelevant in my situation.

TerryK

If you can see P fare available on united.com than you can book it. I think you are confused. You are seeing P class available on united.com but united.com cannot price it at P fare. This means P class is available for your itinerary but there is something else preventing united.com from pricing it at P fare level. It is likely due to plating restriction as I mentioned before.

LH and NH has JV on Europe/Asia flights which UA is not part of.

augias84

No, I can definitely book the P fare on united.com -- for FRA-HND-FRA, the price comes up, and it's ready to ticket. (I mean, I haven't actually bought it, but it all looks good.
But, I want FRA-NGO, HND-FRA, with that open-jaw (and technically the open-jaw should be ok based on the fare rules?), and for some reason, United is not showing me anything below full-fare business for FRA-NGO).
So, to clarify, if I do strictly roundtrip FRA-HND-FRA, P fares come up on united.com and can be booked without issue. But if the first leg is either Frankfurt-Nagoya on the Lufthansa-operated direct flight, or FRA-HND-NGO all on NH flights, the whole ticket more than triples in price instantly...
It could be because the FRA-NGO flight is operated by LH and thus there is a mixing of LH and NH flight numbers that's the issue... I will call UA tomorrow morning and see what they say.

TerryK

Could it be married segment availability? You maybe better off with FRA-HND-FRA RT plus a separate HND-NGO ticket.

jsloan

What's happening here is that LH and NH have coded their plating restrictions differently. LH's restrictions are always in force, but NH's restrictions only apply for travel originating in Japan. That's why you're seeing the P fares on NH flight numbers. United.com won't sell you the nonstop FRA-NGO flight, because they don't show *A codeshares, but a United agent could. (They might choose not to do so, but they can).

Flights don't have restrictions like that; fares do. Here's the complete text:
It's missing from the United.com display because it doesn't apply to your itinerary.

This is telling you that you can build an open jaw with a fare that's also the -RN type (including the PRNJDE fare). Oddly, the value in the fare type field is BXR, but since it auto-prices, you should be OK. Remember, you know that the fares work together because you can price it out on LH or NH tickets. The only question is whether or not they can be plated on 016.

It's against IATA rules to plate on a carrier not involved in the flight. It's unlikely you'd get an agent to agree.

BTW, the fare rules for FRA-NGO are identical to FRA-TYO. FRA-NGO is a constructed fare based atop FRA-TYO.

So, I actually have a theory on this.

NH does not sell P inventory on its intra-Japan flights. The P fares will book into Y. I think that United.com is getting confused and instead of showing the mixed-cabin inventory, it's finding you an A (first class) fare, because that's available all the way through on FRA-HND-NGO.

Sadly, when I tried to do it as a multi-city search, it wasn't smart enough to fare it properly, and the website won't let you do a search for P and Y fares at the same time because it thinks they're different classes of service.

So, TL/DR: Call. You won't be able to book this on United.com; you may be able to get an agent to book it.

Alternatively, book FRA-HND RT on United.com, using the NH-operated flights, then call immediately and ask to add on the HND-NGO leg. You have 24 hours to cancel any ticket purchased on United.com, even one that doesn't involve UA travel.

Good luck!

BTW, feel free to complain to the agent about having to book this on 016 stock in the first place. Perhaps if enough people grumble, they'll realize they need to remove that restriction to stay competitive with DL and AA.

mozilla

IIRC this was something that was discussed in IATA some years ago but I never heard about the outcome. Do you know the exact IATA rule that forbids this?

I do know that the practice was allowed (or maybe tolerated) not so long ago. After UA introduced PQD there was a timeframe where you could easily plate LH/LX/SK/SN... discount fares (with no UA segments) on 016, I remember doing this on .bomb for a lot of intra-EU travel. That source of PQD was eventually closed off when the OAL caught on and introduced plating restrictions.

I also remember a trip to LH's ticketing office in FRA in the first half of the decennium where the (knowledgeable) agent assured me he could ticket anything - any airline - on 220 that didn't have a specific restriction (plating or something else) against it, without the need for LH segments.

ryman554

If the OP must fly into and out of HND, then the OP would certainly be much better off by adding a shinkansen ticket to shinagawa followed by a Keikyu train ride to HND. Faster and no-less-convenient than a domestic NGO-HND (or vice-versa) flight.

jsloan

It appears to be Resolution 852. Oddly, it's dated June, 2011, but I agree with what you're saying; it wasn't until a couple of years ago that it really started to be enforced. I'm mostly quoting second-hand reports; I've asked a grand total of one travel agent personally, and she told me she wasn't allowed to off-plate tickets.

Sure; so can UA. They're not travel agents, so they're not bound by the IATA guidance. UA agents have simply been instructed, by company policy, not to issue tickets that don't contain at least one UA-marketed segment (except for awards, obviously). This is also a recent policy, likely introduced due to the influx of requests following the introduction of PQD and fare-based earnings. Prior to that... I remember a story on here about a GS customer who wanted to make a point, so he called the GS line to book all of his AA tickets.

augias84

Hi everybody -- just wanted to write a quick update on what happened. What I did is I booked the itinerary FRA-HND-FRA on united.com, and then called UA immediately, and asked to replace the outbound flight with the Lufthansa FRA-NGO flight (LH737/NH6010) on same date. The agent at first said that she could not add it, it said "requested fare not available", but she was trying to put in the Lufthansa flight-- when I asked her to try ANA's codeshare flight number specifically--NH6010 (rather than LH736), it worked! Price remained the same. The ticket is now issued on UA stock, P fare on the outbound FRA-NGO, and Z fare on the return HND-FRA (because for the flight I needed, P wasn't available to UA).
It seems that since the ticket had already been issued by the website without any UA segments, that rule wasn't a problem for the agent.
@jsloan was correct: united.com was confused about the codeshare *A thing -- the website tried to book the flight FRA-NGO under the Lufthansa flight number, it could not be priced properly in conjunction with the NH HND-FRA segment. As soon as the agent put in the NH flight number, it worked. The agent said that flying FRA-HND and adding the small HND-NGO segment manually in Y would also have worked (another thing the website wouldn't do, that's when it spit out the $6,000 price because it was coming up with a first class fare).
Thanks again to everybody who weighed in and helped me figure this out!!