UA to streamline Polaris Business service & cut FA staffing on some Intl routes
Nov 7, 2018, 4:36 am
#46
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 11,446
I will say, I'm surprised at how the discussion has panned out so far here on FT. Some quick answers, apologies if I missed someone.
The 2012 Joint Agreement covers it to some extent. Full PDF is at https://unitedafa.org/contract/ -- A quick glance of page 58 shows that the minimum bid positions per fleet type closely mirror the FAA minimum crew. I've been told that negotiating higher minimum bid positions would have been immensely difficult, and would have cost quite a bit in terms of work rules.
There is currently a variable staffing model, where most widebodies will have 5/6 FAs in Polaris, and the variable staffing in the back is calculated with load factor triggers.
The 76L is going to be a disaster, and I fully expect the 45th person (after the pilot rest seat is accounted for) to be served well after the 1st person is done with their entree and ready for desert -- no matter how fast you're going, there's just no way to serve that many people with the current service flow (even if the entrees are preplated)
I won't do the whole plane, but here's what the eliminated premium position does every flight (in addition to safety checks/breifings/cabin coverage/etc):
I'm much too lazy to type out the pre-arrival meal service, but the galley person is still very much the quarterback of that three person team. Also, only two or three of those steps are saved by pre-plated entrees. Someone still has to do all the other stuff.
What's the total load like? Also, there are some rumblings of those figures being cherry picked and not totally accurate information. I havent't flown AA in some time, so I can't tell.
The 2012 Joint Agreement covers it to some extent. Full PDF is at https://unitedafa.org/contract/ -- A quick glance of page 58 shows that the minimum bid positions per fleet type closely mirror the FAA minimum crew. I've been told that negotiating higher minimum bid positions would have been immensely difficult, and would have cost quite a bit in terms of work rules.
There is currently a variable staffing model, where most widebodies will have 5/6 FAs in Polaris, and the variable staffing in the back is calculated with load factor triggers.
The 76L is going to be a disaster, and I fully expect the 45th person (after the pilot rest seat is accounted for) to be served well after the 1st person is done with their entree and ready for desert -- no matter how fast you're going, there's just no way to serve that many people with the current service flow (even if the entrees are preplated)
I won't do the whole plane, but here's what the eliminated premium position does every flight (in addition to safety checks/breifings/cabin coverage/etc):
- Prior to customer boarding, counts entrees in their galley and confirms special meal orders. (This is the only time that more food can be requested and realistically expected to show up in time for departure)
- During boarding, Checks for service items (3 tiered carts, glasses, mugs, plates, dessert cart setup, etc)
- Arranges ovens to accommodate the actual items needed to be cooked, including breads/nuts as well as plates/mugs (those are heated in an oven since they've sat in chilled carts for hours) -- the galley packing is currently horrid, and requires extensive rearranging or things will be inaccessible at times you need them.
- Sets ovens as the last thing prior to takeoff.
- Immediately after FAs get up, helps the two aisle FAs to set up their drink carts, passes them the nuts, linens, & hot towels.
- while aisle FAs are serving drinks, the galley is getting two appetizer carts ready with bread -- a good galley is also taking off the plastic covers from every part of the tray setup (as an aside, there's a ton of waste plastic every flight). Also helps by running out things the aisle FAs run out of (commonly, glasses) or don't have on the cart (chapagne flutes)
- When aisle FAs return with the drink cart and take appetizer/tray setup cart out, begin building the desert carts and have galley area ready for entree prep.
- Aisle FAs finish tray pass out, tray carts get broken down. Aisle Fas begin collecting appetizer dishes
- Plate all entrees for B Zone. Entree plating begins as soon as first row of that zone is ready (app dishes cleared out).
- As plating winds down, finish prepping for desert. have fudge and caramel warm, sundae toppings ready, and coffe and hot water in the carafes.
- Clean up the mess
I'm much too lazy to type out the pre-arrival meal service, but the galley person is still very much the quarterback of that three person team. Also, only two or three of those steps are saved by pre-plated entrees. Someone still has to do all the other stuff.
What's the total load like? Also, there are some rumblings of those figures being cherry picked and not totally accurate information. I havent't flown AA in some time, so I can't tell.
Nov 7, 2018, 8:47 am
#48
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Programs: UA Premier Gold, Delta Gold Medallion, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold, Hilton Honors Gold
Posts: 46
The service on my last Polaris flight was so disjointed and untrained (blank stares when asking for basic things like hanging a coat, mattress pad or, god help me, a menu) that I can't imagine paying good money to fly UA internationally as it is, much less with one less FA to work the J cabin. My return flight on AC was extremely pleasant though; courteous and friendly service, good food and drink, excellent hard product. The real Polaris seat (which I've still never had a chance to fly in) can't possibly make up for crappy, and soon to be crappier, service.
Nov 7, 2018, 9:01 am
#49
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike.. but I wanna go home with the armadillo
Programs: CO, NW, & UA forum moderator emeritus
Posts: 35,373
re!
Nov 7, 2018, 9:09 am
#50
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NYC, BOS, ORD
Programs: AA EXP, DL PM
Posts: 843
A lot of airlines use pre-plated entrees in C/J, including EK (all entrees), AA and DL (most dishes).
The bigger impact to pax is staffing. As noted, the relatively larger cabins on all aircraft and limited galley size, particularly on the 767, are influencing this change.
The bigger impact to pax is staffing. As noted, the relatively larger cabins on all aircraft and limited galley size, particularly on the 767, are influencing this change.
With the recent refurbs of both DL and AA widebodies, I believe both are now down to serving out of a single galley for business class (except the AA 777-200s)
Nov 7, 2018, 9:20 am
#51
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NYC, FLL
Programs: UA PP 1MM, Marriott Bonvoy LTTE, BA Gold
Posts: 6,300
Let's face it - the onboard Polaris soft product was just big experiment, a big "hit and hope", that's getting refined as it goes. We are basically testing in Production (as a nod to the United-Continental merger); it looks nothing like Day 1 anymore.
I know there are hardworking FA's, but I guess UA staff couldn't just master a mimosa/bloody mary cart, wine flights, PDB in a flimsy glass, soup with a meal, etc. I'm sure someone will say "you try it and see how you do" but if I can get a rapid drink and snack service for a 40 min flight on a 747 BKK-HKT, something tells me other things are going on here. And even worse, taking an FA away. Disappointing.
Meanwhile UAL stock just crossed $92 (!), an all-time high... #priorities I'm off to sob, and have my one (1) free 1K drink on an E145...
I know there are hardworking FA's, but I guess UA staff couldn't just master a mimosa/bloody mary cart, wine flights, PDB in a flimsy glass, soup with a meal, etc. I'm sure someone will say "you try it and see how you do" but if I can get a rapid drink and snack service for a 40 min flight on a 747 BKK-HKT, something tells me other things are going on here. And even worse, taking an FA away. Disappointing.
Meanwhile UAL stock just crossed $92 (!), an all-time high... #priorities I'm off to sob, and have my one (1) free 1K drink on an E145...
Nov 7, 2018, 9:41 am
#52
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,441
It's more than that. I don't expect pre-plated mains to be a meaningful difference in terms of quality... this is, on one hand, to address galley packout inefficiency, and (IMO) for aircraft like the 76L, which has one forward galley which needs to stow meal/drink items for 15-16 more pax (not every LHR trip is augmented) with limited additional space, or the forthcoming 764 configuration which I bet may lose the mid-galley. I've had plenty of galley-plated meals that were sloppily presented, too. I'm not too broken up over that.
As far as meaningfully slowing down the service, I think that remains to be seen. Good chance it will, but there's no question the pre-plated mains will expedite service somewhat.
IMO, the biggest impact is the Y cabin on the 757. A full, hot, tray meal service, plus bar carts is going to be hard work for two FA, and will be slow-going (with lights on) for redeyes.
Again, my gripe is with the reduced staffing. I think it's a customer service negative across the board, not limited to a Polaris cut. Still, it'll be spun as "yet another Polaris enhancement", which I don't totally agree with.
As far as meaningfully slowing down the service, I think that remains to be seen. Good chance it will, but there's no question the pre-plated mains will expedite service somewhat.
IMO, the biggest impact is the Y cabin on the 757. A full, hot, tray meal service, plus bar carts is going to be hard work for two FA, and will be slow-going (with lights on) for redeyes.
Again, my gripe is with the reduced staffing. I think it's a customer service negative across the board, not limited to a Polaris cut. Still, it'll be spun as "yet another Polaris enhancement", which I don't totally agree with.
Nov 7, 2018, 10:01 am
#53
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Washington DC
Programs: Delta DM CO PE OZ GE AMTRAK
Posts: 524
It's more than that. I don't expect pre-plated mains to be a meaningful difference in terms of quality... this is, on one hand, to address galley packout inefficiency, and (IMO) for aircraft like the 76L, which has one forward galley which needs to stow meal/drink items for 15-16 more pax (not every LHR trip is augmented) with limited additional space, or the forthcoming 764 configuration which I bet may lose the mid-galley. I've had plenty of galley-plated meals that were sloppily presented, too. I'm not too broken up over that.
As far as meaningfully slowing down the service, I think that remains to be seen. Good chance it will, but there's no question the pre-plated mains will expedite service somewhat.
IMO, the biggest impact is the Y cabin on the 757. A full, hot, tray meal service, plus bar carts is going to be hard work for two FA, and will be slow-going (with lights on) for redeyes.
Again, my gripe is with the reduced staffing. I think it's a customer service negative across the board, not limited to a Polaris cut. Still, it'll be spun as "yet another Polaris enhancement", which I don't totally agree with.
As far as meaningfully slowing down the service, I think that remains to be seen. Good chance it will, but there's no question the pre-plated mains will expedite service somewhat.
IMO, the biggest impact is the Y cabin on the 757. A full, hot, tray meal service, plus bar carts is going to be hard work for two FA, and will be slow-going (with lights on) for redeyes.
Again, my gripe is with the reduced staffing. I think it's a customer service negative across the board, not limited to a Polaris cut. Still, it'll be spun as "yet another Polaris enhancement", which I don't totally agree with.
UA will continue to improve with new planes (787-10, 76L, etc.), new cool destinations (SFO-PPT), and a highly motivated workforce. UA is unstoppable.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Nov 7, 2018 at 3:17 pm Reason: Discuss the issuess; not the poster(s)
Nov 7, 2018, 10:31 am
#54
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,441
look, this has more to do with the elimination of the global first cabin on 777 and 777. UA still dedicats two FAs to the 8 passengers seating in the prior first class section on 777, even though everything is business now. This is just so inefficient and unfair to both FAs working in Polaris and Passengers seating in Polaris cabin. Once the retrofit is done, basically there is no difference compared to prior business cabin FA/pax ratio.
I'm also curious to know how the 77Q and Polaris 772 are currently staffed, and how that might change. That would be useful guidance.
Nov 7, 2018, 11:16 am
#55
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Programs: UA Premier Gold, Delta Gold Medallion, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold, Hilton Honors Gold
Posts: 46
"look, this has more to do with the elimination of the global first cabin on 777 and 777. UA still dedicats two FAs to the 8 passengers seating in the prior first class section on 777, even though everything is business now. This is just so inefficient and unfair to both FAs working in Polaris and Passengers seating in Polaris cabin. Once the retrofit is done, basically there is no difference compared to prior business cabin FA/pax ratio."
I haven't met said workforce yet, but am eager to do so!
Pass me that kool-aid!
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Nov 7, 2018 at 3:20 pm Reason: repaired quote; remove response to deleted content
Nov 7, 2018, 3:23 pm
#57
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 8
Click bating FlyerTalk...
Very disappointed in the level of journalistic quality here...
The headline in my email was: "SERVICE CUTBACKS ARE COMING TO POLARIS"
Then, I clicked on the article to be directed to the headline "United Airlines to Cut Back Service and Trim Crew on International Routes"
After reading the article in its entirety, there is absolutely NOTHING specifically about Polaris.
Why trick us, FlyerTalk? I signed up for this blog to get real information without the noise of all the other sources. This is disappointing and will make me think twice about clicking again or keeping my subscription.
Thanks,
Troy
The headline in my email was: "SERVICE CUTBACKS ARE COMING TO POLARIS"
Then, I clicked on the article to be directed to the headline "United Airlines to Cut Back Service and Trim Crew on International Routes"
After reading the article in its entirety, there is absolutely NOTHING specifically about Polaris.
Why trick us, FlyerTalk? I signed up for this blog to get real information without the noise of all the other sources. This is disappointing and will make me think twice about clicking again or keeping my subscription.
Thanks,
Troy
Nov 7, 2018, 4:49 pm
#58
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat 1.99MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Plat/LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 66,761
Nov 7, 2018, 6:45 pm
#59
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
I see the biggest issue here is for short east-bound TATL, when everyone's trying to eat and get to sleep as fast as possible. For a longer e.g. 13-hour flight, who cares if meal service takes 60 minutes or 90 minutes? Or if meal service is staggered slightly, so the second half of J gets their meal 30 minute slater? You can't "surge staff" the galley, but you can assign the same amount of work to fewer FAs and have it take longer. Which, if those FAs were then going to spend the majority of the next 8 hours on crew rest or answering the occasional call button, might be ok.
The safety concerns seem like a red herring. If that additional FA was required for safety, the FAA minimums should be upped.
The safety concerns seem like a red herring. If that additional FA was required for safety, the FAA minimums should be upped.
Nov 7, 2018, 7:10 pm
#60
Used to be 'TheManWhoFlewTooMuch'
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SFO, SAN
Programs: United 1K 2MM, Delta Diamond emeritus, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 101
Polaris staff reduction
Effective Feb. 1, United plans to reduce by one flight attendant the number of staff in international Polaris business class cabins on wide-body Boeing Dreamliner 787-9 and 787-9 aircraft. On United’s narrowbody Boeing 757 aircraft flying international, United plans to remove one flight attendant from the economy cabin.
The full article is here: https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/...-staffing.html
Thoughts?
The full article is here: https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/...-staffing.html
Thoughts?
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Nov 7, 2018 at 9:04 pm Reason: merged into existing discussion
