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United Airlines Seeks Twice Daily Service Between New York/Newark and Shanghai

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United Airlines Seeks Twice Daily Service Between New York/Newark and Shanghai

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Old Jun 29, 2019, 6:22 pm
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by UA_Flyer
Now American permanent cut ORD-PEK/PVG flights for good, UA is free to fly its 2nd daily EWR-PVG flight once it is approved by DOT.

https://onemileatatime.com/american-...china-flights/

Should UA consider applying more unused slots? IAD-PVG, LAX-PEK or IAH-PVG?
Since it was denied already, do they need to formally reapply for the second EWR-PVG?

While I would love to see UA vacuum up all of the routes AA is dropping, knowing the DOT they will throw DL a bone.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 7:33 pm
  #62  
 
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Originally Posted by jsloan
I can't imagine they'd want to get involved in LAX-PEK. DEN-PVG or IAH-PVG would be interesting. I'm also curious to see something a little more out of the box, like SFO-CAN (but not likely with the new second HKG service). I'd also be curious to see if they could get approval -- or would want approval -- for SFO-PKX. I know *A is supposed to stay at PEK, but I wonder if UA would be willing to forgo connection opportunities.
LAX-PEK or second SFO-PEK is preferred after 2nd EWR-PVG is approved. If 2nd EWR-PVG is approved, there will be three flights to PVG from east part of US and three flights from west coast. For PEK, there are three flights from east part of US now while there is one flight from west coast.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 7:45 pm
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Kmxu

LAX-PEK or second SFO-PEK is preferred after 2nd EWR-PVG is approved. If 2nd EWR-PVG is approved, there will be three flights to PVG from east part of US and three flights from west coast. For PEK, there are three flights from east part of US now while there is one flight from west coast.
As an East Coaster, ORD is considered Midwest to me.

I get your point, though, another Western part of US flight to PEK would be nice, but Air China has something like 5 or 6 flights a day to SFO/LAX.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 7:51 pm
  #64  
 
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With AA throwing in the towel, that means there are three “slots” (actually 21 weekly frequencies, enough for 3 new routes flown daily). DL had filed for MSP-PVG and UA for second daily EWR-PVG. Both UA and DL essentially supported each other’s applications against AA’s dormancy waiver application. So assuming both refile for the same route authorities (if either has to) that should be two routes going through on the nod.

That leaves one route authority up for grabs. If UA decides to go for it their best option for getting approval would be IAD-PVG. It has the most compelling case for approval - US capital city to China’s financial powerhouse, not yet served by a US carrier. I can’t see DL being able to file a credible objection to that. And in the “game of chess” that is competing for US-China routes, UA going for 2x daily EWR first (where DL has a credible hub at JFK) is a smart move.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 9:59 pm
  #65  
 
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Originally Posted by usbusinesstraveller
That leaves one route authority up for grabs. If UA decides to go for it their best option for getting approval would be IAD-PVG. It has the most compelling case for approval - US capital city to China’s financial powerhouse, not yet served by a US carrier. I can’t see DL being able to file a credible objection to that. And in the “game of chess” that is competing for US-China routes, UA going for 2x daily EWR first (where DL has a credible hub at JFK) is a smart move.
If UA's EWR-PVG goes double daily (a likely outcome), I would expect DL to petition for JFK-PVG in order to protect its position in the NYC market. But IMO DL has a better argument with a 2nd ATL-PVG, which would bring the DL-MU partnership closer to parity with UA-CA at PEK. In other words, I don't think UA will get the third authority.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 10:26 pm
  #66  
 
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Originally Posted by UA_Flyer
Now American permanent cut ORD-PEK/PVG flights for good, UA is free to fly its 2nd daily EWR-PVG flight once it is approved by DOT.

https://onemileatatime.com/american-...china-flights/

Should UA consider applying more unused slots? IAD-PVG, LAX-PEK or IAH-PVG?
I don't see UA even thinking about LAX-PEK. There are 4 daily non-stops, CA with 3 and AA with 1 with R/T prices often between $3-4K. Throw in one stops with some of the smaller Chinese carriers and you can get there for under $2K.
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Old Jun 29, 2019, 11:23 pm
  #67  
 
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Originally Posted by sinoflyer
If UA's EWR-PVG goes double daily (a likely outcome), I would expect DL to petition for JFK-PVG in order to protect its position in the NYC market. But IMO DL has a better argument with a 2nd ATL-PVG, which would bring the DL-MU partnership closer to parity with UA-CA at PEK. In other words, I don't think UA will get the third authority.
Ah but that's the point. If UA wins 2x daily EWR-PVG, then NYC-PVG becomes served. So why another route authority for the same market just granted? DL would be petitioning for "yet another" NYC-PVG route while UA is going for a genuinely new (US carrier perspective) route.

Of course this all depends on whether UA or DL go for the last available authority immediately.

And as regards to "bring the DL-MU partnership closer to parity with UA-CA ... ", DL owns part of MU and so is way ahead of UA as regards partnerships with Chinese carriers.
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 3:50 am
  #68  
 
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Originally Posted by usbusinesstraveller
If UA wins 2x daily EWR-PVG, then NYC-PVG becomes served. So why another route authority for the same market just granted? DL would be petitioning for "yet another" NYC-PVG route while UA is going for a genuinely new (US carrier perspective) route.
Arguably, NYC-PVG is relatively underserved in the larger scope of NYC-Mainland China capacity. Compared to LAX, which has ~88 weekly Mainland China nonstops today (distributed among a dozen or so "tier 1" and "tier 2" Chinese cities), EWR/JFK has 68 weekly nonstops (the vast majority to "tier 1" cities of PEK, PVG, and CAN). If both UA and DL added daily EWR/JFK-PVG, NYC would still have fewer weekly flights to mainland China than LAX.

That said, I used "relatively underserved" above loosely because, overall, the US-China market is saturated with too many seats and too cheap fares. Hence AA's decision to abandon those supposedly lucrative authorities. If DL and UA decide to fight over them, especially the third authority, they would be doing so more for posture than with good economic rationale.
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 6:22 am
  #69  
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Originally Posted by UA_Flyer
Perhaps DL and UA have alliance partners and codeshare agreements in place that make business sense while AA does not.
AA's investment in CZ was an attempt to address this weekness. I predict PKX will be the focal point of their partnership during the short and medium term.
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 6:44 am
  #70  
 
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Judging from UA’s recent behavior, if they were to bid for another flight on top of EWR-PVG #2, I’d say the money is on SFO-PEK #2
Originally Posted by usbusinesstraveller
And as regards to "bring the DL-MU partnership closer to parity with UA-CA ... ", DL owns part of MU and so is way ahead of UA as regards partnerships with Chinese carriers.
ehhhh just because there’s an investment doesn’t mean there’s a meaningful partnership in existence from perspective of passengers. (for reference : please see AA-CZ)

second, Star has offered single roof connections at PEK T-3 ever since Norman Foster completed that terminal ahead of Beijing Olympics. And PEK, for whatever its downsides may be, suffer less ATC-induced delays than PVG, so from a pax perspective, UA/CA over PEK is very much competitive against DL/MU at PVG.

(Side note - it’s not like Star ignores PVG either. Inclusive of a hypothetical EWR PVG #2, Star flies 9 daily nonstops spanning 7 gateways from North America to PVG, not bad for an alliance that only has a tiny connecting partner of Juneyao over there)

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jun 30, 2019 at 12:35 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 8:19 am
  #71  
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A few comments on the partnerships:
1. The CX partnership is a lot more important to CA than any of its *A partnerships
2. I am confident that AA-CZ will work nicely at the new airport
3. HO is a joke
4. DL-MU is no worse than UA-CA, though I try my best to avoid connecting in China
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 8:22 am
  #72  
 
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Is the new PVG satellite concourse on track to open this year? Gates were the issue last time UA added a PVG service... took over a year of delays and extensions to score an economically-viable slot. The problem wasn't runway capacity (5 parallel) but lack of gates at most times of the day. The new concourse should address that problem.

Originally Posted by sinoflyer
If UA's EWR-PVG goes double daily (a likely outcome), I would expect DL to petition for JFK-PVG in order to protect its position in the NYC market. But IMO DL has a better argument with a 2nd ATL-PVG, which would bring the DL-MU partnership closer to parity with UA-CA at PEK. In other words, I don't think UA will get the third authority.
It would be interesting to see if there's a fight over the third slot. PEK-MSP/ATL/LAX are arguably larger holes than a 2nd ATL-PVG, adding a lot of capacity to a route that's only about a year old. If UA gets EWR-PVG, a Delta JFK-PVG might be detrimental to both carriers.

Originally Posted by williambruno1975
Judging from UA’s recent behavior, if they were to bid for another flight on top of EWR-PVG #2 , I’d say the money is on SFO-PEK #2
In order of priority, I'd rank:
SFO-PEK #2
IAH-PVG
IAD-PVG
LAX-PEK
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 8:33 am
  #73  
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Originally Posted by EWR764
Is the new PVG satellite concourse on track to open this year? Gates were the issue last time UA added a PVG service... took over a year of delays and extensions to score an economically-viable slot. The problem wasn't runway capacity (5 parallel) but lack of gates at most times of the day. The new concourse should address that problem.
Lack of gates has never been a serious constraint Tmk because there are lots of remote stands. The new jet bridges might be more comfortable, but don't materially impact capacity.
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 8:34 am
  #74  
 
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Originally Posted by moondog
Lack of gates has never been a serious constraint Tmk because there are lots of remote stands. The new jet bridges might be more comfortable, but don't materially impact capacity.
With 5 well-spaced parallel runways, what's the issue then? I was always told it was a lack of suitable gates at the most economically-viable times, which significantly delayed SFO-PVG #2 .
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Old Jun 30, 2019, 9:29 am
  #75  
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Originally Posted by EWR764
With 5 well-spaced parallel runways, what's the issue then? I was always told it was a lack of suitable gates at the most economically-viable times, which significantly delayed SFO-PVG #2 .
One of the five is rarely, if ever, used. The other four are used, but are not far enough apart to facilitate maximum efficiency.
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