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What are my rights? United is saying everything is an ATC delay

What are my rights? United is saying everything is an ATC delay

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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:09 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by gernabae View Post
On good days, you "fly to 1,000,000 destinations out of EWR" and when irrops occur, the GDPs/ground stops happen and those flights are the first to cancel. Then UA still runs their core flights while the competition has a much harder time with much fewer flights, as EWR effectively is an outstation for them. Not much to shuffle for the other carriers.
I don't think there's any question that UA schedules flights into EWR based on something approaching the best-case scenario. They do keep an eye on both completion % and D:0, though; I'm sure they could schedule a few more flights if they were willing to endure worse performance statistics.

UA will prioritize larger planes over smaller planes in a delay -- and, given two planes of the same capacity, they may consider load factors at that point. But it's one of a dozen metrics, not the end-all, be-all that some people like to assume.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:13 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by jsloan View Post
I don't think there's any question that UA schedules flights into EWR based on something approaching the best-case scenario. They do keep an eye on both completion % and D:0, though; I'm sure they could schedule a few more flights if they were willing to endure worse performance statistics.

UA will prioritize larger planes over smaller planes in a delay -- and, given two planes of the same capacity, they may consider load factors at that point. But it's one of a dozen metrics, not the end-all, be-all that some people like to assume.
Agree 100%. I'm just saying the capacity issue is created by United on purpose. Remember, carriers have a meaningful say in requesting GDPs/ground stops, especially a carrier carrying the majority of the flight schedule out of a given airport.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:14 pm
  #18  
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I believe GS - hotel and food voucher; 1k - YMMV hotel and food voucher; everyone else - nothing.

In any case, this is why you purchase travel insurance or use a credit card with good travel protection.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:25 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by gernabae View Post
Agree 100%. I'm just saying the capacity issue is created by United on purpose. Remember, carriers have a meaningful say in requesting GDPs/ground stops, especially a carrier carrying the majority of the flight schedule out of a given airport.
Occam's razor. They have lots of flights at EWR because they have lots of customers in the NYC area and lots of people traveling to NYC. Over-scheduling the airport as part of an elaborate plan to affect their competition is silly and self-defeating; they get the lion's share of the effect because they have the lion's share of the flights.

The FAA sets the slot limits at EWR -- the Port Authority might have a role; I'm not sure. The airlines don't control how many slots there are (and hence, the number of flights); they just control how many of said slots they own.

Originally Posted by mr8 View Post
I believe GS - hotel and food voucher; 1k - YMMV hotel and food voucher; everyone else - nothing.
1K and GS are both covered by the same undocumented program, and should be eligible for food and hotel vouchers. The trick is finding a CS agent who knows that. You should be able to follow up with 1KVoice after the fact with receipts if the agents aren't forthcoming.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:29 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by mr8 View Post
I believe GS - hotel and food voucher; 1k - YMMV hotel and food voucher; everyone else - nothing.

In any case, this is why you purchase travel insurance or use a credit card with good travel protection.
Or have an employer that does not want you to be stressed when traveling for work and will pay for the hotel, meals and any alternative transportation to your destination.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:33 pm
  #21  
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The FAA delay program due to weather is cramming down the arrival rate as low as 20/hour.

Code:
CTL ELEMENT: EWR
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1657Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 03/1657Z - 04/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 03/1657Z - 04/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 36/30/20/20/20/20/20/26/30/36/36/36/36/50
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZY_AP) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV
 ZOA ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP 
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYTZ CYQB
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 723
AVERAGE DELAY: 251
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / THUNDERSTORMS
COMMENTS: ZDC ZNY ZTL  ZOB ZBW ZID CZY REMAIN IN THE GS, EXPECT STOP
 TO BE UPDATED IN FSM SHORTLY AFTER UPDATE.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:34 pm
  #22  
 
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EWR is no longer a FAA mandatory slot controlled airport. It is a Level 2. It moved from a Level 3 to a Level 2 in late 2016.
  • Level 1 is assigned where the capacity of airport infrastructure is generally adequate to meet demand and therefore there is no extensive pattern of delays;
  • Level 2 is assigned where there is potential for congestion during some periods of the day, which can be managed through mutual cooperation of the carriers with the schedule facilitator to ensure scheduling within the airport's capacity; and
  • Level 3 is assigned where infrastructure is inadequate to meet demand and there is significant potential for delays requiring mandatory slot controls.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 12:42 pm
  #23  
 
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There is no savings to cancel a flight because of load (unless cancelled months in advance before there are many bookings). The airline still has to pay all other costs (flight crew, lease on the airplane, lease on the gates, flight dispatcher, mechanics), plus the aircraft is now out of position in it's line of flying. What does happen, is if there is a busted airplane, or lack of crew, the airline will try to affect the fewest number of passengers and connections. Many airlines use sophisticated automation to help them in these decisions.

Rough weather day on the east coast, so not much can be done other than reduce the schedule to try and keep what you can fly intact. Most "ATC fragile" airports are unfortunately scheduled at near or at their VFR good weather limits (runway and airspace capacity).
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Old Aug 3, 18, 1:50 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by bdlman View Post
There is a small window of bad weather but it is nowhere near my flight. The weather is totally fine tonight in Newark this evening. This is an excuse to cancel.
Not true. Currently my flight out of LGA is 6.5 hours delayed. Due to weather.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:11 pm
  #25  
 
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I was under the impression the airline can only book as many flights into/out of an airport as the airport claims they can handle. Note that weather delays can be caused by the point of departure of the inbound aircraft or points in between. My flight to BOS 2-3 weeks ago was delayed over an hour due to weather even though BOS itself was fine because bad weather in between forced us to take a wide divert. A passenger in BOS waiting for that aircraft would have experienced the same issue you are complaining about and if my flight had been at the end of the day, the connecting flight probably would have been cancelled.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:12 pm
  #26  
 
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Take a look at what’s happening at JFK with DL and AA cancellations/delays. UA is not out to screw you
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:15 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gernabae View Post
Agree 100%. I'm just saying the capacity issue is created by United on purpose.
You mean they try to sell as many seats as possible, thus meeting demand and maximizing revenue? Yes they are certainly guilty of that.

These large scale IRROPS are extremely costly for airlines. No one is happy when there are large scale delays and cancels.
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:15 pm
  #28  
 
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The number of slots at NYC area airports is way too much. The FAA should not be handing out slots as if every day has HNL weather. That is simply not reality.

Think about it -- would you rather have a choice of 3 PM and 7 PM flights that leave on time, or have a choice of 3 PM, 5 PM, and 7 PM flights, all of which are delayed by three hours?
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:23 pm
  #29  
 
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Wow, the east coast is a mess. UA 4952 routed over Columbus, Ohio on its way from JAX to EWR. That plane represents the EWR-BDL flight originally scheduled at 2:35 (now 4:54 PM). If the OP is heading to BDL, that's probably their only chance to fly today (assumption based on their Flyertalk name and the late EWR-BDL flight being cancelled).
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Old Aug 3, 18, 2:28 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Kevin AA View Post
Think about it -- would you rather have a choice of 3 PM and 7 PM flights that leave on time, or have a choice of 3 PM, 5 PM, and 7 PM flights, all of which are delayed by three hours?
I'd rather have fares based on a (mostly) competitive market than a tightly slot controlled one. Cut seats in half and you will see fares rise commensurately.
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