"Horny" Passenger Allegedly Molested Women on UA Flight
#16
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: UA MileagePlus 2MM
Posts: 1,567
I would make a huge scene and fight back. If his hand was rubbing my vagina it would perhaps turn violent, but you better believe I would come out the winner. And he would be arrested on arrival. No way would I move to another seat.
And yes, thats what I would tell my daughter to do.
I dont think some of you guys truly realize what a sensative situation this is for us, and how emotional it can make women feel just by reading this sort of thing can still happen. Its time to fight back, not run away.
and P.S. The guy got away with it
AGREED. It's so sad that travel, whether business or personal, ends up like this. Travel is a privilege, a blessing, and educational. Being violated anywhere, whether onboard or anywhere else, is a horrible place to find oneself. Whatever payout Dowling receives will never heal the wounds she suffered. Subject to what we know here.
#17
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: UA MileagePlus 2MM
Posts: 1,567
I spent 20 days in April as a juror on a medical malpractice suit. In the end I disagreed with my fellow jury members, but the plaintiff apparently worried about positive outcome. They settled. As a jury we we're planning to award 6x the settlement. IMHO Dowling should win in a civil lawsuit.
#18
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 553
In dangerous situations, our brain has many responses. Many people know about "fight or flight", but few people realize that freezing is another response that humans have evolved. These mechanisms are not always triggered consciously, and I think if you consider that, you might have a different perspective on these situations. This person is not the only one to freeze in dangerous or stressful situation.
#19
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I'm not defending the Fedex Pilot at all, if he did what he did. I'm merely saying, why not remove yourself from the situation using your own power if you don't like it / if you can and talk to authorities (whomever they may be aka UA FA's / Pursers in the air). At that point it shouldn't matter who's inconveniencing who. Like you said it's "time to fight back". Use your own power to move, to "defend" yourself, to raise a ruckus. The victim just seemed a bit passive...whether it's from shock or disbelief, ok. Or maybe it's poor article writing (or reading lol).
#20
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This represents a basic misunderstanding of the American legal system. The verdict does not come even close to saying there was no wrongdoing. It merely reflects the fact that (in the jury's view) the prosecution failed to meet its burden of proof. In a criminal case, guilt must be established "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil case, the burden of proof is a "preponderance of evidence", which is a much lower standard. There are many cases where a defendant is cleared of criminal charges, but loses the civil case.
This is perhaps the most nave statement ever made on FlyerTalk. If it was that easy, nobody would ever suffer assault.
This is perhaps the most nave statement ever made on FlyerTalk. If it was that easy, nobody would ever suffer assault.
#21
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K (since 2008), *G (since 1990), 1MM
Posts: 3,213
... If it was not, then again, I wonder why she would sit and endure it.
Would you just sit there?
I understand people are victims. Whether or not there was an empty seat, if the Fedex Pilot did what he did, it's wrong. But why sit there and make yourself a victim even longer? Is that what you would want your daughter to do? It's like, why not move yourself AND report it / raise a ruckus?
Would you just sit there?
I understand people are victims. Whether or not there was an empty seat, if the Fedex Pilot did what he did, it's wrong. But why sit there and make yourself a victim even longer? Is that what you would want your daughter to do? It's like, why not move yourself AND report it / raise a ruckus?
She did not just sit there she approached the FA and was told to sit back down in her seat and discuss it with the person assaulting her.
You're placing the blame in the wrong place, and while your viewpoint continues in the broader community victims of sexual assault will continue to feel it is their fault. Place the blame on the right person. The FedEx pilot is alleged to have stated they were both horny (because he is a man and can obviously read the mind of an attractive woman!)
I hope she wins her civil lawsuit. We need more of these so victims know the rest of us believe them and do not think the behavior is acceptable.
I do feel passionate about this issue - I know too many victims that feel powerless and that people blame them for the fact they were sexually assaulted.
#22
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K (since 2008), *G (since 1990), 1MM
Posts: 3,213
This represents a basic misunderstanding of the American legal system. The verdict does not come even close to saying there was no wrongdoing. It merely reflects the fact that (in the jury's view) the prosecution failed to meet its burden of proof. In a criminal case, guilt must be established "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil case, the burden of proof is a "preponderance of evidence", which is a much lower standard. There are many cases where a defendant is cleared of criminal charges, but loses the civil case.
This is perhaps the most nave statement ever made on FlyerTalk. If it was that easy, nobody would ever suffer assault.
This is perhaps the most nave statement ever made on FlyerTalk. If it was that easy, nobody would ever suffer assault.
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,745
Sadly, hindsight is 20/20, and the comment about freezing up (i.e. "flight, fight, or freeze" is spot-on), but if she could could go back in time to a moment before the assault, this is what she should have done:
I am appalled that the FA told the victim to go back to her seat and work it out with her assailant.
I am appalled that the FA told the victim to go back to her seat and work it out with her assailant.
#24
Join Date: Oct 2015
Programs: SWA CP, UA MP, Hilton G, SPG G
Posts: 69
This is where details matter.
#25
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This is an IBB, not a courtroom. I am talking about what to do as the victim of a sexual predator, on the airplane, in the moment.
#26
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Typical money-grab in our screwed-up legal system. Taking the linked story at face value, the woman didn't take any action until after the second or third incident, and she was moved before anything else happened. (The FA might have been wrong to tell her to go back and talk to the guy, but that was immediately mooted by the purser's actions.)
Unless there were corroborating witnesses, this is a classic he said, she said. Had United taken action against the male, they'd be getting sued by him.
Unless there were corroborating witnesses, this is a classic he said, she said. Had United taken action against the male, they'd be getting sued by him.
#27
Join Date: Oct 2017
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#28
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LOL. There has never, at any time in American history, been a "social convention" for women to sit politely after being grabbed in or near the vagina by a stranger on an airplane (or anywhere else, for that matter).
#29
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K (since 2008), *G (since 1990), 1MM
Posts: 3,213
"
Now I did not grow up in the USA (but Australia), but I suspect there are great similarities in the culture for females. I can assure you I was brought up to not confront a man. A "nice girl" does not do that. So when these things happened to me (and they happened more than you may realize), after the first time when I was 19 by a 60 year old (who was the senior partner in the firm) some of my male colleagues came to my "rescue" as I just burst into tears as I did not know what to do. I subsequently learned to diffuse future situations with humor, but I was also very much working in a man's world and the attitude was if I could not stand the heat to get out of the kitchen - I was a very successful professional female and you would not believe how many men are unhappily married or the number of times I was "propositioned" and we were able to "laugh" it off. But many females did not have the status in their careers that I did. There was and is a social convention for women to defer to men. So unless you are a female who has experienced the cultural norm of what is expected of a "nice girl", please respect that perhaps women do believe this is what is expected of them.
The women in this situation was probably trying not to make a scene, until she could not take it any longer. Until you have walked in her shoes perhaps consider that she too is a "nice girl". She was told by another female to sort it out with the guy who was assaulting her - we "nice girls" do not want to hurt a man's fragile ego. She then reported it the next day. That took courage as she would have had to be interviewed by the police and presumably testify in court.
There is a reason so many women support the MeToo movement - it is a real problem for many, many women.
The women in this situation was probably trying not to make a scene, until she could not take it any longer. Until you have walked in her shoes perhaps consider that she too is a "nice girl". She was told by another female to sort it out with the guy who was assaulting her - we "nice girls" do not want to hurt a man's fragile ego. She then reported it the next day. That took courage as she would have had to be interviewed by the police and presumably testify in court.
There is a reason so many women support the MeToo movement - it is a real problem for many, many women.
#30
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"
Now I did not grow up in the USA (but Australia), but I suspect there are great similarities in the culture for females. I can assure you I was brought up to not confront a man. A "nice girl" does not do that. So when these things happened to me (and they happened more than you may realize), after the first time when I was 19 by a 60 year old (who was the senior partner in the firm) some of my male colleagues came to my "rescue" as I just burst into tears as I did not know what to do. I subsequently learned to diffuse future situations with humor, but I was also very much working in a man's world and the attitude was if I could not stand the heat to get out of the kitchen - I was a very successful professional female and you would not believe how many men are unhappily married or the number of times I was "propositioned" and we were able to "laugh" it off. But many females did not have the status in their careers that I did. There was and is a social convention for women to defer to men. So unless you are a female who has experienced the cultural norm of what is expected of a "nice girl", please respect that perhaps women do believe this is what is expected of them.
The women in this situation was probably trying not to make a scene, until she could not take it any longer. Until you have walked in her shoes perhaps consider that she too is a "nice girl". She was told by another female to sort it out with the guy who was assaulting her - we "nice girls" do not want to hurt a man's fragile ego. She then reported it the next day. That took courage as she would have had to be interviewed by the police and presumably testify in court.
There is a reason so many women support the MeToo movement - it is a real problem for many, many women.
Now I did not grow up in the USA (but Australia), but I suspect there are great similarities in the culture for females. I can assure you I was brought up to not confront a man. A "nice girl" does not do that. So when these things happened to me (and they happened more than you may realize), after the first time when I was 19 by a 60 year old (who was the senior partner in the firm) some of my male colleagues came to my "rescue" as I just burst into tears as I did not know what to do. I subsequently learned to diffuse future situations with humor, but I was also very much working in a man's world and the attitude was if I could not stand the heat to get out of the kitchen - I was a very successful professional female and you would not believe how many men are unhappily married or the number of times I was "propositioned" and we were able to "laugh" it off. But many females did not have the status in their careers that I did. There was and is a social convention for women to defer to men. So unless you are a female who has experienced the cultural norm of what is expected of a "nice girl", please respect that perhaps women do believe this is what is expected of them.
The women in this situation was probably trying not to make a scene, until she could not take it any longer. Until you have walked in her shoes perhaps consider that she too is a "nice girl". She was told by another female to sort it out with the guy who was assaulting her - we "nice girls" do not want to hurt a man's fragile ego. She then reported it the next day. That took courage as she would have had to be interviewed by the police and presumably testify in court.
There is a reason so many women support the MeToo movement - it is a real problem for many, many women.