United: Only 1 Route to Seoul?
May 12, 2018, 12:05 am
#16
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NRT / HND
Programs: AA EXP, NH Plat, Former UA 1K
Posts: 5,626
AA only flies DFW-ICN 1 daily with 789. But in a capacity sense, since AA 789 has 285 seats, they have more capacity than UA.
I think the US-Korea market is pretty much locked up by OZ/KE+DL. Considering that neither NH or JL fly NRT-ICN, there's no effective way for UA/AA to connect US to Korea besides the 1 daily they have.
I think the US-Korea market is pretty much locked up by OZ/KE+DL. Considering that neither NH or JL fly NRT-ICN, there's no effective way for UA/AA to connect US to Korea besides the 1 daily they have.
May 12, 2018, 6:34 am
#17
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Seoul
Programs: None anymore
Posts: 983
UA is perfectly happy to sell a ticket connecting in NRT and continuing on OZ metal, I've seen it offered loads of times and booked it a once or twice. So for the OP, if you can't connect in SFO because it's too early, then take the EWR or IAD flight to NRT and connect to OZ there. There are also loads of HND-GMP flights if you don't mind taking the train or bus across town in Tokyo.
AA has only 1 route to ICN, from DFW and not ORD, so your question can also apply to AA.
Meanwhile, DL flies to ICN from SEA, DTW, and ATL. However, DL has only 1 route to HKG (from SEA), so your question can also be reworded to ask, how can DL justify having such low capacity to one of the top-10 airports in the world, while having 3 times as many flights to an airport that's only slightly bigger than Denver?
Meanwhile, DL flies to ICN from SEA, DTW, and ATL. However, DL has only 1 route to HKG (from SEA), so your question can also be reworded to ask, how can DL justify having such low capacity to one of the top-10 airports in the world, while having 3 times as many flights to an airport that's only slightly bigger than Denver?
And much of demand from SFO is from those working for Korean companies, which have corporate accounts on - you guessed it OZ or KE.
There was a period 15+ years ago when KE and OZ both had very bad reputations, and UA or NW were the preferred carriers with better product and service. But both KE and OZ have substantially upped their game, and both provide much better product, particularly in Y, than does UA. UA can only compete on price at this point against both, and even ex-SFO is losing that war and as a result downgaging as KE and OZ add more capacity.
There was a period 15+ years ago when KE and OZ both had very bad reputations, and UA or NW were the preferred carriers with better product and service. But both KE and OZ have substantially upped their game, and both provide much better product, particularly in Y, than does UA. UA can only compete on price at this point against both, and even ex-SFO is losing that war and as a result downgaging as KE and OZ add more capacity.
As far as KE and OZ upping their game to the west coast, yes I definitely agree. LAX alone has 5 direct flights a day (2 OZ, 2 KE, 1 SG) with 4 of those flights until 2 weeks ago being A380's. KE is now 2 frequencies a day at SFO. There is definitely a lot of demand there.
demand.
I think you're leaving out the fact that Asiana and United are in the same alliance and Asiana has multiple flights to/from the United States.
It's similar (in my mind) to why United doesn't fly much to/from Toronto much. How can they justify this? Because Air Canada does.
I think you're leaving out the fact that Asiana and United are in the same alliance and Asiana has multiple flights to/from the United States.
It's similar (in my mind) to why United doesn't fly much to/from Toronto much. How can they justify this? Because Air Canada does.
United has no JV with Asiana (so not pushing much through traffic as with the flights to NRT) and Asiana offers much better service and much more comfortable hard product, from Multiple USA locations (JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, HNL). KAL in turn flies to YVR, Toronto, ATL, ORD, DFW, HNL, LAS, JFK, SFO, SEA, IAD.
Unless one is hard wired into MP or on a corporate rate (in which case you can come to SFO for the one flight to ICN) there is simply no reason to fly UA. And I might add that UA has substantially downsized capacity to ICN. If was often a 744, now its often a 789. Meanwhile KAL has added a second daily departure, and is running service to SFO on a combo of A359s and B748s.
Unless one is hard wired into MP or on a corporate rate (in which case you can come to SFO for the one flight to ICN) there is simply no reason to fly UA. And I might add that UA has substantially downsized capacity to ICN. If was often a 744, now its often a 789. Meanwhile KAL has added a second daily departure, and is running service to SFO on a combo of A359s and B748s.
AA only flies DFW-ICN 1 daily with 789. But in a capacity sense, since AA 789 has 285 seats, they have more capacity than UA.
I think the US-Korea market is pretty much locked up by OZ/KE+DL. Considering that neither NH or JL fly NRT-ICN, there's no effective way for UA/AA to connect US to Korea besides the 1 daily they have.
I think the US-Korea market is pretty much locked up by OZ/KE+DL. Considering that neither NH or JL fly NRT-ICN, there's no effective way for UA/AA to connect US to Korea besides the 1 daily they have.
May 12, 2018, 6:46 am
#18
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: DEN
Programs: UA GS, Marriott Gold
Posts: 174
United has no JV with Asiana (so not pushing much through traffic as with the flights to NRT) and Asiana offers much better service and much more comfortable hard product, from Multiple USA locations (JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, HNL). KAL in turn flies to YVR, Toronto, ATL, ORD, DFW, HNL, LAS, JFK, SFO, SEA, IAD.
May 12, 2018, 8:12 am
#19
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: BOS/SIN
Programs: DL PM, OZ Diamond Plus, BA Silver
Posts: 1,798
Not sure I agree on the hard product. The A380 (LAX-ICN) seat is of the modern area of seat design, with all the aisle access on the upper deck. It did not feel much different than UA 77W Polaris. But their 777 seat (not sure which version of 777 on the ICN-SEA route), I would take the UA 789 product in a heartbeat. It has no privacy and was like a board. As far as the service, it was as good as UA's, cold and indifferent, but tolerable I guess. I certainly do not long to fly OZ.
May 12, 2018, 9:20 am
#21
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SFO
Programs: DL Charter DM/DM/2MM, IHG Diamond Elite
Posts: 1,925
Incorrect! KE has been flying the B789 and B748i from ICN for a month now!
May 12, 2018, 10:40 am
#22
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Rowley, MA / Edgartown, MA / Christiansted, St. Croix (USVI)
Programs: UA LT GS/4.96MM, Marriott LT Titanium, IHG Platinum, Global Entry, TSA Pre✓, Korea SeS, APEC
Posts: 579
AA has only 1 route to ICN, from DFW and not ORD, so your question can also apply to AA.
Meanwhile, DL flies to ICN from SEA, DTW, and ATL. However, DL has only 1 route to HKG (from SEA), so your question can also be reworded to ask, how can DL justify having such low capacity to one of the top-10 airports in the world, while having 3 times as many flights to an airport that's only slightly bigger than Denver?
Meanwhile, DL flies to ICN from SEA, DTW, and ATL. However, DL has only 1 route to HKG (from SEA), so your question can also be reworded to ask, how can DL justify having such low capacity to one of the top-10 airports in the world, while having 3 times as many flights to an airport that's only slightly bigger than Denver?
May 12, 2018, 11:06 am
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Programs: United, American, Delta, Hyatt, Hilton, Hertz, Marriott
Posts: 14,793
As an Airport ICN is huge with volume of close to 40M passengers movements a year. The recent expansion, opening a 2nd terminal, it's planned to grow to 60M passenger movements a year over the next decade. The Seoul area also has a population of well over 20M people and is very modern and dynamic by any measure. I've been flying into Seoul (and much of Asia) almost monthly since the early 1990's and in my opinion ICN is one of the best airports in Asia.
May 12, 2018, 11:24 am
#24
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SFO
Programs: DL Charter DM/DM/2MM, IHG Diamond Elite
Posts: 1,925
NO! Unless... 1) You don't have a boarding pass/copy of your next flight info to show the security personnel at the transit area, or 2) your bag(s) are not checked through to your next destination!
May 12, 2018, 1:09 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: UA, Starwood, Priority Club, Hertz, Starbucks Gold Card
Posts: 3,952
As an Airport ICN is huge with volume of close to 40M passengers movements a year. The recent expansion, opening a 2nd terminal, it's planned to grow to 60M passenger movements a year over the next decade. The Seoul area also has a population of well over 20M people and is very modern and dynamic by any measure. I've been flying into Seoul (and much of Asia) almost monthly since the early 1990's and in my opinion ICN is one of the best airports in Asia.
My comment about "ICN is slightly bigger than DEN" is based on total passenger enplanements-deplanements in 2017. There are certainly other ways to compare cities. (Source: Airports Council Int'l):
#1 ATL 103.9 million
#8 HKG 72.7 million
#19 ICN 62.2 million
#20 DEN 61.4 million
May 12, 2018, 1:18 pm
#26
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Herndon, Virginia
Programs: Mileage Plus 1k, 2.3MM Flyer, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum Elite
Posts: 187
Been flying to (or from) Seoul 1 or 2x per year for 15 years and have never had a problem connecting from the early morning IAD- SFO flight. There is always a 6AM or 6:30AM flight to SFO to connect thru and I have never missed the connection. Definitely miss the upper deck on the 747 on this route. Would love to take the KE flight direct from IAD but Biz class is normally 50% higher than on UA and $10k is more than I want to pay so I have never done it. However I do think UA needs an additional direct flight from the East Coast to ICN. There is an enormous Korean population near IAD and I am surprised that it appears to date no one thinks it could support another flight.
May 12, 2018, 2:24 pm
#27
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,404
As far as KE and OZ upping their game to the west coast, yes I definitely agree. LAX alone has 5 direct flights a day (2 OZ, 2 KE, 1 SG) with 4 of those flights until 2 weeks ago being A380's. KE is now 2 frequencies a day at SFO. There is definitely a lot of demand there.
I don't like the new terminal at all. I'd rather connect at NRT, HKG, TPE, or - especially - SIN. All four are better airports than ICN IMO. In fact, I find ICN (along with AMS) to be one of the most overrated airports in the world. Definitely would not make my "best" list.
May 12, 2018, 2:42 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: UA Million Mile, Mileage Plus Premier 1K, SkyMiles Gold Medallion, AAdvantage Gold
Posts: 875
I have wanted a EWR-ICN flight for years. NY/NJ combined have over 250,000 Korean-Americans, and Sumsung Electronics US HQ is in Northern NJ. Always been shocked they only have one ICN flight given the huge O&D between the U.S. and Korea.
May 12, 2018, 2:49 pm
#29
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
You are right, I got confused. Asiana is running the A359. KE is running (this summer) a combo of 748s and 789 or 77W. UA is running a 789.
May 12, 2018, 5:28 pm
#30
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Programs: UA*Lifetime GS, Hyatt* Lifetime Globalist
Posts: 12,306
I don't like the new terminal at all. I'd rather connect at NRT, HKG, TPE, or - especially - SIN. All four are better airports than ICN IMO. In fact, I find ICN (along with AMS) to be one of the most overrated airports in the world. Definitely would not make my "best" list.
