What a Mess of a Day....BUR-SFO (UA) SFO-IST(Turkish) award booking.
#1
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What a Mess of a Day....BUR-SFO (UA) SFO-IST(Turkish) award booking.
So I booked a J Award flight using Aeroplan to go from BUR-SFO (UA) SFO-IST (Turkish) for my father and brother to fly out today and a lot of things went wrong and im still confused as to who messed up what went wrong and what can be done next time if there is a next time.
Their initial flight from Burbank was supposed to take off at 1:40 but due to weather the ticketing agent at United told them they their flight was heavily delayed and they might miss their connection so he instructed them to go to LAX (on their own dime) and that he would book them on a J ticket direct from LAX today. My father and brother were kinda happier with the change and decided to just go with it. They got a ride to LAX went to the Turkish counter and they started to tell them that they have no business seats left (lie) and that their ticket reservation wasn't coming up on the system. My father and brother ( who don't know much about award tickets and how they work) call me and I tell them to call Aeroplan to see whats going on. Aeroplan shows that they have ticket a number and tells my parents to go to United to get it sorted. Turkish Airlines ends up admitting that they have Business Class seats open and as soon as they fix the reservation they will ticket them on that flight. At this point I was pretty close to LAX so I decided to meet them at the United counter to help them with the rest of the way if they needed my help. They walk over from Bradley to Terminal 7 (my father is almost 71 years old) and the ticket agent tells them their reservation is good and they should have no problems going to Turkish. I advised him that if he hasnt changed anything it's really pointless because they made my father walk over once so he calls Turkish Airlines himself. As he's on hold for over 30 minutes the ticketing agent and myself advised my brother to go to the Turkish counter and see if the ticket number will work.
Ticket Agent from United seems to have some serious problems with Turkish on the phone, they keep saying the confirmation number is there but the reservation is missing and they will not ticket them. My brother gets back to the Turkish Counter and the person in front of him purchased an upgrade and when it became my brothers turn they tell him that first off they only have one business seat left and that the reservation still wasn't popping up on the system. The UA agent at the same time is on phone with Turkish Miles Department gets frustrated with them and takes my brother and father off the flight and says I will book you guys from LAX-LHR LHR-IST. We wanted to get upset that everything was disorganized but I have no idea who is really messing up so my father decides its ok to take the flight. He then tells us that LHR-IST is in coach and its such a quick flight it shouldn't be a problem. I start to get a bit upset and tell them they were booked on J have been following everything from United. Their is a Swiss Air Flight to ZRH theres a LH flight to MUC he should somehow figure out a way to get them there on the correct class. He makes a phone call and tells me that he's able to put them on the LAX-LHR( UA) on business and the LHR-IST(Turkish) on business and ends up booking it. The tickets get printed out and its in economy for the LAX-LHR segment and after I pointed it out he then tells me they are number 1 and 2 on the waiting list and they will clear. Honestly, they have been given the run around so many times with so many airlines that I asked him nicely twice to just push the waiting list and print them the business. I cant think of one reason why it would need to go through the list and for god knows what reason a VIP comes and bumps them off. He does this and now the LHR-IST ticket comes out as well and the ticket comes out and just says Seat 242 for the first ticket and 243 for the second ticket.I have no idea if its actually business or not but he promises it is and they board their LAX flight eventually.
1) Did we do something wrong?
2) Who's fault is it?
3) When my father and brother get to London are they going to find out they are actually in Coach?
a) if they are booked in coach is this something I can fix now before they get there?
4) Kind of a long shot but does EC 261 even apply here?
Sorry for a bunch of run on sentences and a long rant and if i posted in the wrong forum but I think since it was United who was handling everything maybe its the United forum.
Their initial flight from Burbank was supposed to take off at 1:40 but due to weather the ticketing agent at United told them they their flight was heavily delayed and they might miss their connection so he instructed them to go to LAX (on their own dime) and that he would book them on a J ticket direct from LAX today. My father and brother were kinda happier with the change and decided to just go with it. They got a ride to LAX went to the Turkish counter and they started to tell them that they have no business seats left (lie) and that their ticket reservation wasn't coming up on the system. My father and brother ( who don't know much about award tickets and how they work) call me and I tell them to call Aeroplan to see whats going on. Aeroplan shows that they have ticket a number and tells my parents to go to United to get it sorted. Turkish Airlines ends up admitting that they have Business Class seats open and as soon as they fix the reservation they will ticket them on that flight. At this point I was pretty close to LAX so I decided to meet them at the United counter to help them with the rest of the way if they needed my help. They walk over from Bradley to Terminal 7 (my father is almost 71 years old) and the ticket agent tells them their reservation is good and they should have no problems going to Turkish. I advised him that if he hasnt changed anything it's really pointless because they made my father walk over once so he calls Turkish Airlines himself. As he's on hold for over 30 minutes the ticketing agent and myself advised my brother to go to the Turkish counter and see if the ticket number will work.
Ticket Agent from United seems to have some serious problems with Turkish on the phone, they keep saying the confirmation number is there but the reservation is missing and they will not ticket them. My brother gets back to the Turkish Counter and the person in front of him purchased an upgrade and when it became my brothers turn they tell him that first off they only have one business seat left and that the reservation still wasn't popping up on the system. The UA agent at the same time is on phone with Turkish Miles Department gets frustrated with them and takes my brother and father off the flight and says I will book you guys from LAX-LHR LHR-IST. We wanted to get upset that everything was disorganized but I have no idea who is really messing up so my father decides its ok to take the flight. He then tells us that LHR-IST is in coach and its such a quick flight it shouldn't be a problem. I start to get a bit upset and tell them they were booked on J have been following everything from United. Their is a Swiss Air Flight to ZRH theres a LH flight to MUC he should somehow figure out a way to get them there on the correct class. He makes a phone call and tells me that he's able to put them on the LAX-LHR( UA) on business and the LHR-IST(Turkish) on business and ends up booking it. The tickets get printed out and its in economy for the LAX-LHR segment and after I pointed it out he then tells me they are number 1 and 2 on the waiting list and they will clear. Honestly, they have been given the run around so many times with so many airlines that I asked him nicely twice to just push the waiting list and print them the business. I cant think of one reason why it would need to go through the list and for god knows what reason a VIP comes and bumps them off. He does this and now the LHR-IST ticket comes out as well and the ticket comes out and just says Seat 242 for the first ticket and 243 for the second ticket.I have no idea if its actually business or not but he promises it is and they board their LAX flight eventually.
1) Did we do something wrong?
2) Who's fault is it?
3) When my father and brother get to London are they going to find out they are actually in Coach?
a) if they are booked in coach is this something I can fix now before they get there?
4) Kind of a long shot but does EC 261 even apply here?
Sorry for a bunch of run on sentences and a long rant and if i posted in the wrong forum but I think since it was United who was handling everything maybe its the United forum.
Last edited by Amil; Mar 5, 2018 at 10:41 pm Reason: forgot
#2
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,352
2) It's UA's responsibility to get the ticket pushed across properly to TK, although based on your description, it sounds like the TK staff weren't being the least bit helpful. Getting UA and TK talking to each other was the right move. However, UA can't force TK to accept an award ticket. (UA could offer to pay for the ticket, of course, but that seems unlikely). The fact that the TK people started calling their award desk is a red flag -- it may be that UA tried to rebook into positive space* and TK refused to accept it because it's an award ticket. With the ticket number, the TK agents should have been able to pull up the ticket and shown you its status. If it was "Exch./Reissued," then UA didn't complete the transfer process and you'd want to ask them to force it through again. If it said "Open" or "Airport Control," they should have been able to update their reservation system to let them on board.
3 & 3a) No idea; you could call TK to ask, but I can't promise you'd get anywhere with them.
4) EU.261 probably doesn't apply unless you can show that you had a confirmed reservation with TK and they denied your family boarding. Frankly, that sounds like a long shot; if UA didn't push the ticket over properly, TK would have had no obligation to accept them.
* "positive space" = any seat on the airplane, ignoring inventory requirements. Generally, award tickets can't be rebooked into positive space on partner airlines.
Last edited by jsloan; Mar 5, 2018 at 10:29 pm Reason: typo
#3
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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1) On the day of travel, you need to deal with the carrier who caused the delay (UA). Calling Aeroplan likely didn't help (although it probably didn't do any harm either, except to waste some of your time).
2) It's UA's responsibility to get the ticket pushed across properly to TK, although based on your description, it sounds like the TK staff weren't being the least bit helpful. Getting UA and TK talking to each other was the right move. However, UA can't force TK to accept an award ticket. (UA could offer to pay for the ticket, of course, but that seems unlikely). The fact that the TK people started calling their award desk is a red flag -- it may be that UA tried to rebook into positive space* and TK refused to accept it because it's an award ticket. With the ticket number, the TK agents should have been able to pull up the ticket and shown you its status. If it was "Exch./Reissued," then UA didn't complete the transfer process and you'd want to ask them to force it through again. If it said "Open" or "Airport Control," they should have been able to update their reservation system to let them on board.
3 & 3a) No idea; you could call TK to ask, but I can't promise you'd get anywhere with them.
4) EU.261 probably doesn't apply unless you can show that you had a confirmed reservation with TK and they denied your family boarding. Frankly, that sounds like a long shot; if UA didn't push the ticket over properly, TK would have have no obligation to accept them.
* "positive space" = any seat on the airplane, ignoring inventory requirements. Generally, award tickets can't be rebooked into positive space on partner airlines.
2) It's UA's responsibility to get the ticket pushed across properly to TK, although based on your description, it sounds like the TK staff weren't being the least bit helpful. Getting UA and TK talking to each other was the right move. However, UA can't force TK to accept an award ticket. (UA could offer to pay for the ticket, of course, but that seems unlikely). The fact that the TK people started calling their award desk is a red flag -- it may be that UA tried to rebook into positive space* and TK refused to accept it because it's an award ticket. With the ticket number, the TK agents should have been able to pull up the ticket and shown you its status. If it was "Exch./Reissued," then UA didn't complete the transfer process and you'd want to ask them to force it through again. If it said "Open" or "Airport Control," they should have been able to update their reservation system to let them on board.
3 & 3a) No idea; you could call TK to ask, but I can't promise you'd get anywhere with them.
4) EU.261 probably doesn't apply unless you can show that you had a confirmed reservation with TK and they denied your family boarding. Frankly, that sounds like a long shot; if UA didn't push the ticket over properly, TK would have have no obligation to accept them.
* "positive space" = any seat on the airplane, ignoring inventory requirements. Generally, award tickets can't be rebooked into positive space on partner airlines.
Thank you so much for the response. I called Turkish and they confirmed their LHR-IST leg is in Business they just don't have a seat number yet. I definitely feel much better just writing it out and finding out who's at fault !
#4
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: TK*G (E+), IHG Plat Ambassador
Posts: 7,884
UA created this mess.
They should have rebooked BUR-SFO-IST into LAX-IST (in 'I' inventory) and then have the tickets exchanged for LAX-IST. They could do this as the day-of-departure *A endorsement waiver applies also to award tickets.
TK didn't necessarily lie to you - 'I' inventory might be not available when you asked, even when 2 seats (in revenue inventories like 'C' or 'D') could have been available.
They should have rebooked BUR-SFO-IST into LAX-IST (in 'I' inventory) and then have the tickets exchanged for LAX-IST. They could do this as the day-of-departure *A endorsement waiver applies also to award tickets.
TK didn't necessarily lie to you - 'I' inventory might be not available when you asked, even when 2 seats (in revenue inventories like 'C' or 'D') could have been available.
#5
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Posts: 21,352
They should have rebooked BUR-SFO-IST into LAX-IST (in 'I' inventory) and then have the tickets exchanged for LAX-IST. They could do this as the day-of-departure *A endorsement waiver applies also to award tickets.
TK didn't necessarily lie to you - 'I' inventory might be not available when you asked, even when 2 seats (in revenue inventories like 'C' or 'D') could have been available.
TK didn't necessarily lie to you - 'I' inventory might be not available when you asked, even when 2 seats (in revenue inventories like 'C' or 'D') could have been available.
#7
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You can ask that they accommodate you in a non-award class. They're likely to say 'no,' but you can ask. If it's a mechanical delay instead of weather, it's more likely that they'll say yes. The operating carrier still has to agree, though.
#8
Join Date: Jun 2008
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It is clearly stated on *A Employee Portal - no password required to visit. Google it out or I will publish a link when I reach the office - I have it bookmarked in my laptop (I am Europe-based, so it will be in 2 hours).
#9
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Here's the specific policy (from page 70-71):
Endorsement Waiver
Each carrier will publish and honour the Star Alliance Endorsement Waiver Agreement (EWA) policy, as agreed on a multilateral basis between Star Alliance member carriers.
For electronic tickets, the endorsement, as described in the following conditions, is granted by giving airport control from the validating carrier to the Star Alliance member carrier performing the reissue/exchange.
Paper tickets: Any Star Alliance member carrier or one of its agents will be able to reissue or exchange a ticket or MCO without having to request a written or stamped endorsement, under the described conditions:
Conditions: Voluntary
• When a customer requests a change of airline or re-routing (as described in IATA Resolution 736), the Star Alliance member carriers agree to grant airport control (thus waive the endorsement requirement between themselves) for non-restricted tickets or MCOs provided that:
A. such tickets or MCOs do not bear carrier validation restrictions, which by their terms prohibit the transfer of the ticket or MCOs such as “Valid on XX only” and “Non-Endorsable”;
B. such tickets or MCOs are not governed by fare rules that prohibit transfer of the ticket to the other party. • Does not apply to ID/AD tickets.
Conditions: Involuntary
• When an airline undergoes a schedule change or encounters an irregularity in accordance with the general provisions of IATA Resolution 735D, the Star Alliance member carriers agree to grant airport control (and thereby waive the endorsement requirement) for the following:
A. non-restricted tickets;
B. restricted tickets;
C. Frequent flyer redemption tickets. After schedule changes, rebookings are made with Star Allliance carriers according to redemption seat availability.
• No endorsement required for any fare types when an airline encounters an irregular operation (within 24 hours of departure).
• Does not apply to ID tickets.
Each carrier will publish and honour the Star Alliance Endorsement Waiver Agreement (EWA) policy, as agreed on a multilateral basis between Star Alliance member carriers.
For electronic tickets, the endorsement, as described in the following conditions, is granted by giving airport control from the validating carrier to the Star Alliance member carrier performing the reissue/exchange.
Paper tickets: Any Star Alliance member carrier or one of its agents will be able to reissue or exchange a ticket or MCO without having to request a written or stamped endorsement, under the described conditions:
Conditions: Voluntary
• When a customer requests a change of airline or re-routing (as described in IATA Resolution 736), the Star Alliance member carriers agree to grant airport control (thus waive the endorsement requirement between themselves) for non-restricted tickets or MCOs provided that:
A. such tickets or MCOs do not bear carrier validation restrictions, which by their terms prohibit the transfer of the ticket or MCOs such as “Valid on XX only” and “Non-Endorsable”;
B. such tickets or MCOs are not governed by fare rules that prohibit transfer of the ticket to the other party. • Does not apply to ID/AD tickets.
Conditions: Involuntary
• When an airline undergoes a schedule change or encounters an irregularity in accordance with the general provisions of IATA Resolution 735D, the Star Alliance member carriers agree to grant airport control (and thereby waive the endorsement requirement) for the following:
A. non-restricted tickets;
B. restricted tickets;
C. Frequent flyer redemption tickets. After schedule changes, rebookings are made with Star Allliance carriers according to redemption seat availability.
• No endorsement required for any fare types when an airline encounters an irregular operation (within 24 hours of departure).
• Does not apply to ID tickets.
#10
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,899
I'm confused - can't on day of departure UA rebook them on TK in J/C/D and reissue the e-ticket.
They then go to TK and check in without problems?
Why should TK care as long as the ticket is properly reissued and synched?
Doesn't a properly reissued ticket indicate UA promises to pay TK the proper rate for however it was reissued?
They then go to TK and check in without problems?
Why should TK care as long as the ticket is properly reissued and synched?
Doesn't a properly reissued ticket indicate UA promises to pay TK the proper rate for however it was reissued?
#11
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I'm confused - can't on day of departure UA rebook them on TK in J/C/D and reissue the e-ticket.
They then go to TK and check in without problems?
Why should TK care as long as the ticket is properly reissued and synched?
Doesn't a properly reissued ticket indicate UA promises to pay TK the proper rate for however it was reissued?
They then go to TK and check in without problems?
Why should TK care as long as the ticket is properly reissued and synched?
Doesn't a properly reissued ticket indicate UA promises to pay TK the proper rate for however it was reissued?
The endorsement waiver that TPJ mentioned would have allowed TK to reissue the ticket themselves into award space, for ultimate compensation using the award booking rate. However, TK is not allowed to reissue the ticket themselves into an non-award fare class, since the compensation rates for those are considerably higher than for award tickets.
#13
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Posts: 21,352
Also, UA would have been responsible for meals and hotel for the passengers under the Star Alliance IRROPS policy, also listed in the guide linked in my earlier post. This is not true in general, but it is true because they were premium cabin (or *G) passengers on an intercontinental flight.
That reminds me: OP, due to that *A policy, I'm pretty sure UA was responsible for the ride to LAX. If they took paid transportation, they should write in for reimbursement under the Star Alliance Irregular Operations Handling policy for uncontrollable delays for premium customers on intercontinental journeys, page 152-153 of the 2017-18 Star Alliance Employee Reference Guide.
#14
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Lesson: Never leave the counter without a new ticket number. A reservation is never enough.
#15
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I'm not sure what OP means by "waitlist" for business on LHR-IST. You can't be waitlisted on an award segment on TK to my knowledge. So I'm glad the OP pushed UA to force the "waitlist" immediately while still at LAX. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure OP's family would have wound up in coach on that segment.
242 and 243 were the sequence numbers for that flight for OP's family. Someone on there should/would have been printed "See Agent" or something like that to get seat assignments in LHR.
-RM
242 and 243 were the sequence numbers for that flight for OP's family. Someone on there should/would have been printed "See Agent" or something like that to get seat assignments in LHR.
-RM