Flights leaving early with delayed connecting passengers should be penalized
Jan 29, 2018, 11:00 am
#46
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,761
This thread should be in Travelbuzz. Anyway, I still maintain that departure time should be when the doors are closed, not when the paperwork is done, not when you start talking to ATC, not when the parking brake gets released, not when the airplane starts physically moving back, not when the airplane starts moving forward under its own power, not when takeoff clearance is given, not when takeoff roll begins, not at V1, and not at wheels up. Everything that occurs AFTER the doors are closed is someone else's problem, not mine. Why am I expected to give the airline extra time to do all this stuff behind the scenes? I know that it exists... my point is that *I don't care*.
Publish a departure time (close the doors) and publish an arrival time (estimated time of arrival at the gate given a departure time + paperwork + talk to ATC + blah blah blah + etc.)
Publish a departure time (close the doors) and publish an arrival time (estimated time of arrival at the gate given a departure time + paperwork + talk to ATC + blah blah blah + etc.)
Jan 29, 2018, 11:05 am
#47
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Jersey
Programs: UA MM 1K, AA MM Gold, Marriott LT Platinum
Posts: 3,234
ATC delay cancelled - passengers not at gate
Variation on a theme....
What should happen when an ATC delay is cancelled, all passengers in the gate area have boarded, and it's now the original boarding time, BUT, several passengers aren't in the gate area?
Yesterday, GSO-EWR, EMB-145, scheduled departure 5:35pm. Received ATC delay notification at 2:08pm that the flight will now depart at 6:41pm. At 5:20pm the pilot comes out and tells the GA that they've just lifted the ATC delay and we can leave on-time if everyone boards right away. 5-10 minutes later everyone in the gate area had boarded. At about T+5, the pilot comes on the PA and announces that several checked-in passengers couldn't be located, so they had to wait. He said one factor in waiting was that UA didn't change the delayed departure time on the App/Website, and they felt that those passengers were relying on the online info. Several passengers started grumbling about their tight connections in EWR. Needless to say, when the 4 missing passengers showed up, they weren't exactly welcomed on. We backed away from the gate at 6:04pm, then lost our EWR slot & sat on the tarmac awhile. Ended up arriving 30 minutes late in EWR, and that was only because of a strong tail wind.
Did UA do the right thing? The rules say you have to be at the gate at the original departure time, but how many infrequent flyers know that? I'm guessing the late arriving passengers had timed their arrival at the airport to the delay time, since you can walk the length of the GSO airport in about 10 minutes and they would have heard the announcement that the flight was boarding. I would hate to think that any of the passengers who did board initially then missed their EWR connections.
Once again, shows how consideration to one group of passengers can adversely impact another group.
What should happen when an ATC delay is cancelled, all passengers in the gate area have boarded, and it's now the original boarding time, BUT, several passengers aren't in the gate area?
Yesterday, GSO-EWR, EMB-145, scheduled departure 5:35pm. Received ATC delay notification at 2:08pm that the flight will now depart at 6:41pm. At 5:20pm the pilot comes out and tells the GA that they've just lifted the ATC delay and we can leave on-time if everyone boards right away. 5-10 minutes later everyone in the gate area had boarded. At about T+5, the pilot comes on the PA and announces that several checked-in passengers couldn't be located, so they had to wait. He said one factor in waiting was that UA didn't change the delayed departure time on the App/Website, and they felt that those passengers were relying on the online info. Several passengers started grumbling about their tight connections in EWR. Needless to say, when the 4 missing passengers showed up, they weren't exactly welcomed on. We backed away from the gate at 6:04pm, then lost our EWR slot & sat on the tarmac awhile. Ended up arriving 30 minutes late in EWR, and that was only because of a strong tail wind.
Did UA do the right thing? The rules say you have to be at the gate at the original departure time, but how many infrequent flyers know that? I'm guessing the late arriving passengers had timed their arrival at the airport to the delay time, since you can walk the length of the GSO airport in about 10 minutes and they would have heard the announcement that the flight was boarding. I would hate to think that any of the passengers who did board initially then missed their EWR connections.
Once again, shows how consideration to one group of passengers can adversely impact another group.
Jan 29, 2018, 11:10 am
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,337
Jan 29, 2018, 11:21 am
#49
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2018
Programs: UA Premier Silver
Posts: 311
That's not correct.
There are several metrics that are reported to the DOT. D:00, A:00, and A:14. A flight is considers on-time only if it arrives at the arrival gate within 14 minutes of the scheduled arrival time (A:14). Touching down or taking off have no bearing on the on-time reports.
D:00 means that the airplane began it's pushback no later than the scheduled departure time. In order to meet D:00, the door has to be closed, jetbridge moved, F/A arm & crosscheck complete and ensure that all passengers are seated, belted, and carry-on bags stowed. At that point they tell us that the cabin is prepared and close the cockpit door. Once that is done, and the ramp crew is ready, we call the ramp tower for pushback clearance. Often, we must wait a few minutes for traffic to clear before we are given our pushback clearance. Only then can the pushback begin and our OUT time be established. To depart on-time, D:00, the passenger door has to close several minutes before the scheduled departure time. That is why the boarding times and cutoffs are set as they are.
D:00 is only important internally as D:00 is the first building block for achieving the ultimate goal of A:00. The "on-time" stats from the DOT, and in the computer reservation systems, are not based on D:00, they are based on A:14.
United is expanding the technology to consider more factors than just D:00 when deciding whether or not to hold a flight for connecting passengers. The new IT is combining information on flight plan time, down-line connections, reroute options, crew time limitations, other flights holding for the gate, etc. and recommend when, and for how long, to hold flights. I don't deal with this directly so don't know the details of how it is implemented but it should lead to smarter go/hold decisions going forward.
To the OP, I'm sorry that you missed your connection. Operating flights on time, including the delayed inbound flight which ultimately caused your delay and misconnect, is a priority for all of us. Getting from your inbound flight to the departure gate so quickly is impressive. Most passengers would not have been able to make it that quickly which likely influenced the gate agent's decision to close the flight when he/she did. They have a screen in Aero which displays all the relevant information on inbound connecting passengers along with the arrival gate and flight status information. This gives them a pretty good idea of who can make the connection and who will not.
There are several metrics that are reported to the DOT. D:00, A:00, and A:14. A flight is considers on-time only if it arrives at the arrival gate within 14 minutes of the scheduled arrival time (A:14). Touching down or taking off have no bearing on the on-time reports.
D:00 means that the airplane began it's pushback no later than the scheduled departure time. In order to meet D:00, the door has to be closed, jetbridge moved, F/A arm & crosscheck complete and ensure that all passengers are seated, belted, and carry-on bags stowed. At that point they tell us that the cabin is prepared and close the cockpit door. Once that is done, and the ramp crew is ready, we call the ramp tower for pushback clearance. Often, we must wait a few minutes for traffic to clear before we are given our pushback clearance. Only then can the pushback begin and our OUT time be established. To depart on-time, D:00, the passenger door has to close several minutes before the scheduled departure time. That is why the boarding times and cutoffs are set as they are.
D:00 is only important internally as D:00 is the first building block for achieving the ultimate goal of A:00. The "on-time" stats from the DOT, and in the computer reservation systems, are not based on D:00, they are based on A:14.
United is expanding the technology to consider more factors than just D:00 when deciding whether or not to hold a flight for connecting passengers. The new IT is combining information on flight plan time, down-line connections, reroute options, crew time limitations, other flights holding for the gate, etc. and recommend when, and for how long, to hold flights. I don't deal with this directly so don't know the details of how it is implemented but it should lead to smarter go/hold decisions going forward.
To the OP, I'm sorry that you missed your connection. Operating flights on time, including the delayed inbound flight which ultimately caused your delay and misconnect, is a priority for all of us. Getting from your inbound flight to the departure gate so quickly is impressive. Most passengers would not have been able to make it that quickly which likely influenced the gate agent's decision to close the flight when he/she did. They have a screen in Aero which displays all the relevant information on inbound connecting passengers along with the arrival gate and flight status information. This gives them a pretty good idea of who can make the connection and who will not.
Jan 29, 2018, 11:25 am
#50
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DTW/MBS
Programs: UA 1K, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Formerly Starbucks Gold
Posts: 3,525
Let me add my empathy to the OP.
OP, you said
IMO, how or what UA did to re-accommodate you is really what you should use in evaluating how much UA cares (in regards to you and your status). As a fellow 1K, I expect a certain better level of service when it comes to this. Were you booked (automatically?) onto the next SAN flight? Did you have to talk to someone and they put you on that? Were you aware of any alternatives, and if so, did you present those to the gate agent/customer service? Did the UA person helping you make an honest effort to get you to SAN?
In regards to your comment about the 45 minute connection, lots of people have different tolerances for risk. I wouldn't really care unless it was the last flight of the night, since 1) LAX-SAN is not that far and 2) There are plenty of other flights a day between the cities. If I absolutely, positively had to be on that flight or get to SAN as early as possible, then I would have booked an earlier LAS-LAX flight or even the night before or paid more - otherwise, go with the flow and don't take it personal (it's not).
OP, you said
Seriously poor customer service on the part of United, especially since the flight was due to arrive early in SAN and they knew there was a connecting passanger. I was in seat 1A and an a 1K member - obviously United do not care for my business. I had really thought UA was improving in the area of customer service and my recent experiences had cofirmed this but this was a dreadful lapse by them.
In regards to your comment about the 45 minute connection, lots of people have different tolerances for risk. I wouldn't really care unless it was the last flight of the night, since 1) LAX-SAN is not that far and 2) There are plenty of other flights a day between the cities. If I absolutely, positively had to be on that flight or get to SAN as early as possible, then I would have booked an earlier LAS-LAX flight or even the night before or paid more - otherwise, go with the flow and don't take it personal (it's not).
Jan 29, 2018, 11:36 am
#51
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BA Bronze, United 1K, HH Gold, SPG Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 3,477
Variation on a theme....
What should happen when an ATC delay is cancelled, all passengers in the gate area have boarded, and it's now the original boarding time, BUT, several passengers aren't in the gate area?
Yesterday, GSO-EWR, EMB-145, scheduled departure 5:35pm. Received ATC delay notification at 2:08pm that the flight will now depart at 6:41pm. At 5:20pm the pilot comes out and tells the GA that they've just lifted the ATC delay and we can leave on-time if everyone boards right away. 5-10 minutes later everyone in the gate area had boarded. At about T+5, the pilot comes on the PA and announces that several checked-in passengers couldn't be located, so they had to wait. He said one factor in waiting was that UA didn't change the delayed departure time on the App/Website, and they felt that those passengers were relying on the online info. Several passengers started grumbling about their tight connections in EWR. Needless to say, when the 4 missing passengers showed up, they weren't exactly welcomed on. We backed away from the gate at 6:04pm, then lost our EWR slot & sat on the tarmac awhile. Ended up arriving 30 minutes late in EWR, and that was only because of a strong tail wind.
Did UA do the right thing? The rules say you have to be at the gate at the original departure time, but how many infrequent flyers know that? I'm guessing the late arriving passengers had timed their arrival at the airport to the delay time, since you can walk the length of the GSO airport in about 10 minutes and they would have heard the announcement that the flight was boarding. I would hate to think that any of the passengers who did board initially then missed their EWR connections.
Once again, shows how consideration to one group of passengers can adversely impact another group.
What should happen when an ATC delay is cancelled, all passengers in the gate area have boarded, and it's now the original boarding time, BUT, several passengers aren't in the gate area?
Yesterday, GSO-EWR, EMB-145, scheduled departure 5:35pm. Received ATC delay notification at 2:08pm that the flight will now depart at 6:41pm. At 5:20pm the pilot comes out and tells the GA that they've just lifted the ATC delay and we can leave on-time if everyone boards right away. 5-10 minutes later everyone in the gate area had boarded. At about T+5, the pilot comes on the PA and announces that several checked-in passengers couldn't be located, so they had to wait. He said one factor in waiting was that UA didn't change the delayed departure time on the App/Website, and they felt that those passengers were relying on the online info. Several passengers started grumbling about their tight connections in EWR. Needless to say, when the 4 missing passengers showed up, they weren't exactly welcomed on. We backed away from the gate at 6:04pm, then lost our EWR slot & sat on the tarmac awhile. Ended up arriving 30 minutes late in EWR, and that was only because of a strong tail wind.
Did UA do the right thing? The rules say you have to be at the gate at the original departure time, but how many infrequent flyers know that? I'm guessing the late arriving passengers had timed their arrival at the airport to the delay time, since you can walk the length of the GSO airport in about 10 minutes and they would have heard the announcement that the flight was boarding. I would hate to think that any of the passengers who did board initially then missed their EWR connections.
Once again, shows how consideration to one group of passengers can adversely impact another group.
In some small airports, if your plane is delayed and you know the inbound has not arrived, you can time it that way. But for an ATC delay with the plane already at the airport, I would never trust it.
Jan 29, 2018, 11:42 am
#52
Join Date: Jan 2016
Programs: UA 1K; *G, AA Plat
Posts: 1,700
If UA gets a slot and the plane is on the ground, it's going to board and take that slot. They're not 'waiting' for anyone basing on the fact that you "thought" it was going to be 4.5 hours delayed so you made plans.
It sucks, but it is what it is. The time of one person vs. the time of an entire aircraft (and even more flights since the aircraft will be utilized upon arrival at its destination city).
Jan 29, 2018, 11:42 am
#53
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: EWR
Programs: UA Gold, BA, HHonors, Avis
Posts: 192
Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences, very interesting. My personal two take home is that 45 minutes is a much shorter connection in reality than on paper. I think I'll take that into account a bit more when choosing connections.
Oh, and that sometimes when you late really close to departure you should relax and save yourself the run through the airport. Now whether I'll actually be able to bring myself to do that when I deplane at T-10 we'll have to see.
Oh, and that sometimes when you late really close to departure you should relax and save yourself the run through the airport. Now whether I'll actually be able to bring myself to do that when I deplane at T-10 we'll have to see.
Jan 29, 2018, 11:45 am
#54
Join Date: Jan 2016
Programs: UA 1K; *G, AA Plat
Posts: 1,700
Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences, very interesting. My personal two take home is that 45 minutes is a much shorter connection in reality than on paper. I think I'll take that into account a bit more when choosing connections.
Oh, and that sometimes when you late really close to departure you should relax and save yourself the run through the airport. Now whether I'll actually be able to bring myself to do that when I deplane at T-10 we'll have to see.
Oh, and that sometimes when you late really close to departure you should relax and save yourself the run through the airport. Now whether I'll actually be able to bring myself to do that when I deplane at T-10 we'll have to see.
Best advice on this thread is if you think it's tight, such as at T-10, ask the gate agent upon deplaning to radio ahead and inform them that you're coming, to leave your ticket valid, and to hold the plane. While not guaranteed, it may help!
Jan 29, 2018, 11:46 am
#55
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New York NY
Programs: UA Gold, CO Plat, CO Million Miler
Posts: 2,615
This thread should be in Travelbuzz. Anyway, I still maintain that departure time should be when the doors are closed, not when the paperwork is done, not when you start talking to ATC, not when the parking brake gets released, not when the airplane starts physically moving back, not when the airplane starts moving forward under its own power, not when takeoff clearance is given, not when takeoff roll begins, not at V1, and not at wheels up. Everything that occurs AFTER the doors are closed is someone else's problem, not mine. Why am I expected to give the airline extra time to do all this stuff behind the scenes? I know that it exists... my point is that *I don't care*.
Publish a departure time (close the doors) and publish an arrival time (estimated time of arrival at the gate given a departure time + paperwork + talk to ATC + blah blah blah + etc.)
Publish a departure time (close the doors) and publish an arrival time (estimated time of arrival at the gate given a departure time + paperwork + talk to ATC + blah blah blah + etc.)
Jan 29, 2018, 11:53 am
#56
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DTW, but drive to/from YYZ/ORD
Programs: Chase Ultimate Rewards 2MM, Diner Club points
Posts: 31,895
OP had a choice to fly non-stop on DL or WN or drive 5 hours , but choose to connect on UA? First world problems indeed!
Jan 29, 2018, 12:24 pm
#57
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Honolulu Harbor
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 14,984
Airplane loaded except one missing passenger who is not at gate area and another aircraft waiting on gate that has arrived late loaded with passengers w/ tight connections? Your solution is to wait for the one passenger and perhaps cause 20 misconnects? There's a reason we don't dictate how our personal flights ought to be operated. UA has a lot more things going on besides a late passenger, a GA, and a door. If you're affected, you automatically discount anything else going on - you just see a door, a GA, and plane that you're not on. Next time you're on a plane that's an hour late and you're waiting on a gate w/ a tight connection wondering "when the heck is that damn plane gonna get the heck out of there?", you might appreciate the fact that they closed the flight when they did (instead of making you wait another 10 minutes).
We've all been both the beneficiary and victim of UA's operational decisions. It all works out in the long run.
Last edited by IAH-OIL-TRASH; Jan 29, 2018 at 12:45 pm
Jan 29, 2018, 12:46 pm
#58
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: none
Posts: 1,668
A point made earlier, but deserves repeating, is that if there are legitimate standby's for the flight, your seat can be reassigned to someone else who is already there. That's exactly what "standby" means. They're not as likely to "un-clear" someone just because you happen to arrive late. So, even if the plane is still sitting at the gate, your seat may not be.
Last edited by Allan38103; Jan 29, 2018 at 8:07 pm
Jan 29, 2018, 1:15 pm
#59
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K (since 2008), *G (since 1990), 1MM
Posts: 3,213
Interestingly enough I have had a couple of delayed flights LAS-SFO but always made my SFO-SAN connection as invariably the same plane was being used. I now understand it is T-15 (based on responses above) and will not run for a flight. Yes, they accommodated me on the next flight so got to sit a gate at LAX for two hours. If I had known they would leave without me I would have got off the plane in T7, walked to T6 to sit in the AS lounge for a couple of hours and then walked to T8. I am a 1k but this is because I fly internationally and have been increasing my domestic travel with UA during the past year. Yes, one of my friends who i meet up with in LAS and MSY is always trying to convince me to switch to DL but his luggage never goes the same place as him (well to be fair around 25% of the time his luggage travels with him). I had already booked my next SAN-LAS flight and it is through SFO so am anticipating delays but making my (delayed) connections. Also, the Centurion lounge is a nice place to wait in SFO.
Jan 29, 2018, 1:28 pm
#60
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: dark side of the moon
Programs: papa card, UA 1K
Posts: 707
That's not correct.
There are several metrics that are reported to the DOT including D:00, A:00, and A:14. A flight is considered on-time only if it arrives at the arrival gate within 14 minutes of the scheduled arrival time (A:14). Touching down or taking off have no bearing on the on-time reports.
D:00 means that the airplane began it's pushback no later than the scheduled departure time. In order to meet D:00, the door has to be closed, jetbridge moved, F/A arm & crosscheck complete and ensure that all passengers are seated, belted, and carry-on bags stowed. At that point they tell us that the cabin is prepared and close the cockpit door. Once that is done, and the ramp crew is ready, we call the ramp tower for pushback clearance. Often, we must wait a few minutes for traffic to clear before we are given our pushback clearance. Only then can the pushback begin and our OUT time be established. To depart on-time, D:00, the passenger door has to close several minutes before the scheduled departure time. That is why the boarding times and cutoffs are set as they are.
D:00 is only important internally as D:00 is the first building block for achieving the ultimate goal of A:00. The "on-time" stats from the DOT, and in the computer reservation systems, are not based on D:00, they are based on A:14.
United is expanding the technology to consider more factors than just D:00 when deciding whether or not to hold a flight for connecting passengers. The new IT is combining information on flight plan time, down-line connections, reroute options, crew time limitations, other flights holding for the gate, etc. and recommend when, and for how long, to hold flights. I don't deal with this directly so don't know the details of how it is implemented but it should lead to smarter go/hold decisions going forward.
To the OP, I'm sorry that you missed your connection. Operating flights on time, including the delayed inbound flight which ultimately caused your delay and misconnect, is a priority for all of us. Getting from your inbound flight to the departure gate so quickly is impressive. Most passengers would not have been able to make it that quickly which likely influenced the gate agent's decision to close the flight when he/she did. They have a screen in Aero which displays all the relevant information on inbound connecting passengers along with the arrival gate and flight status information. This gives them a pretty good idea of who can make the connection and who will not.
There are several metrics that are reported to the DOT including D:00, A:00, and A:14. A flight is considered on-time only if it arrives at the arrival gate within 14 minutes of the scheduled arrival time (A:14). Touching down or taking off have no bearing on the on-time reports.
D:00 means that the airplane began it's pushback no later than the scheduled departure time. In order to meet D:00, the door has to be closed, jetbridge moved, F/A arm & crosscheck complete and ensure that all passengers are seated, belted, and carry-on bags stowed. At that point they tell us that the cabin is prepared and close the cockpit door. Once that is done, and the ramp crew is ready, we call the ramp tower for pushback clearance. Often, we must wait a few minutes for traffic to clear before we are given our pushback clearance. Only then can the pushback begin and our OUT time be established. To depart on-time, D:00, the passenger door has to close several minutes before the scheduled departure time. That is why the boarding times and cutoffs are set as they are.
D:00 is only important internally as D:00 is the first building block for achieving the ultimate goal of A:00. The "on-time" stats from the DOT, and in the computer reservation systems, are not based on D:00, they are based on A:14.
United is expanding the technology to consider more factors than just D:00 when deciding whether or not to hold a flight for connecting passengers. The new IT is combining information on flight plan time, down-line connections, reroute options, crew time limitations, other flights holding for the gate, etc. and recommend when, and for how long, to hold flights. I don't deal with this directly so don't know the details of how it is implemented but it should lead to smarter go/hold decisions going forward.
To the OP, I'm sorry that you missed your connection. Operating flights on time, including the delayed inbound flight which ultimately caused your delay and misconnect, is a priority for all of us. Getting from your inbound flight to the departure gate so quickly is impressive. Most passengers would not have been able to make it that quickly which likely influenced the gate agent's decision to close the flight when he/she did. They have a screen in Aero which displays all the relevant information on inbound connecting passengers along with the arrival gate and flight status information. This gives them a pretty good idea of who can make the connection and who will not.
