Dec 29, 2017, 7:11 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Please Read
It is the desire of the FT UA Moderation Team to keep this thread open, as there is still much to be learned. While realizing this incident has some elements that have led to some very active discussion; such as the Congresswoman is local to a major UA hub and familiar to many UA flyers, FT has certain rules for discussion. This forum is focused on travel with UA and there are better places for other types of discussion.
After some discussion among the FT UA Moderators, we wish to clarify what is appropriate and what is not.
Not appropriate and better elsewhere
And all the standard FT rules apply including not commenting on other posters and not posting unnecessarily inflammatory, inciting or provocative comments.
Generally, if you are not discussing the incident, good chance you may be Off Topic.
WineCountryUA
on behalf of the UA FT Moderation Team
It is the desire of the FT UA Moderation Team to keep this thread open, as there is still much to be learned. While realizing this incident has some elements that have led to some very active discussion; such as the Congresswoman is local to a major UA hub and familiar to many UA flyers, FT has certain rules for discussion. This forum is focused on travel with UA and there are better places for other types of discussion.
After some discussion among the FT UA Moderators, we wish to clarify what is appropriate and what is not.
Discussion of the actual incident and how it might have happened
Discussion of how UA has handled the event
Discussion if the congresswoman or others forced this to happen
Discussion of UA granting unearned GS status
Discussion of how UA has handled the event
Discussion if the congresswoman or others forced this to happen
Discussion of UA granting unearned GS status
Not appropriate and better elsewhere
Overly political or racial comments about the congresswoman (or anyone else)
General comments about politicians, government officials unrelated to the actual incident
General ethics discussion concerning corporate/government officials accepting complimentary status
General comments about politicians, government officials unrelated to the actual incident
General ethics discussion concerning corporate/government officials accepting complimentary status
And all the standard FT rules apply including not commenting on other posters and not posting unnecessarily inflammatory, inciting or provocative comments.
Generally, if you are not discussing the incident, good chance you may be Off Topic.
WineCountryUA
on behalf of the UA FT Moderation Team
Pax accuses UA of giving her F seat to US Rep
Dec 30, 2017, 11:33 am
#376
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Well, to be fair, the Alaska Airlines incident only involved a death, not a possibly ill-gotten upgrade.
Dec 30, 2017, 12:50 pm
#377
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Yes I am new, and neither a United shill or a congresswomen. I grew up as a fan of United airlines. My parents were frequent flyers for years, and I always flew United as a kid. I love the history of it and am generally a fan of it, so I do not get the vitriol.
You can look at the Facebook pages of all airlines (including the beloved Southwest) and you will see an equal amount of angry passengers.
The Alaska Airlines passenger death is a prime example....it is nowhere near the front page. and it is obvious to me that it would be a front page story if it was United. I have never had a bad experience on United. Yes, I have observed some somewhat rude, or at least disinterested gate agents, but I have never been treated so badly as to wish for their downfall with the hatred of a thousand burning suns.
I have traveled on every airline regularly (except Delta in the last 2 years) and have seen rude customer service and flight attendants everywhere (including JetBlue and Southwest). I do not know what it is that gets people so riled up about United. I was a three year companion pass holder at Southwest before I became a United mileage plus member two years ago. I fly 3-4 legs a week, and I prefer the amenities of United, the lounges (of which SWA has none), the quiet of the boarding process and the general laid back professionalism of the flight crews. I have never seen someone snip or get snappy with a passenger.
I think passengers on United experience a self-fulfilled prophecy...they expect poor results so When something out of their control like weather cancels a flight "oh what do you expect from United".
A PASSENGER ON ALASKA DIED BECAUSE OF POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE...and there are only 23 YES, 23 Comments on it! what does that tell you?
You can look at the Facebook pages of all airlines (including the beloved Southwest) and you will see an equal amount of angry passengers.
The Alaska Airlines passenger death is a prime example....it is nowhere near the front page. and it is obvious to me that it would be a front page story if it was United. I have never had a bad experience on United. Yes, I have observed some somewhat rude, or at least disinterested gate agents, but I have never been treated so badly as to wish for their downfall with the hatred of a thousand burning suns.
I have traveled on every airline regularly (except Delta in the last 2 years) and have seen rude customer service and flight attendants everywhere (including JetBlue and Southwest). I do not know what it is that gets people so riled up about United. I was a three year companion pass holder at Southwest before I became a United mileage plus member two years ago. I fly 3-4 legs a week, and I prefer the amenities of United, the lounges (of which SWA has none), the quiet of the boarding process and the general laid back professionalism of the flight crews. I have never seen someone snip or get snappy with a passenger.
I think passengers on United experience a self-fulfilled prophecy...they expect poor results so When something out of their control like weather cancels a flight "oh what do you expect from United".
A PASSENGER ON ALASKA DIED BECAUSE OF POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE...and there are only 23 YES, 23 Comments on it! what does that tell you?
Dec 30, 2017, 12:59 pm
#378
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The difference in p.r. between United and Delta is incredible. I arrived at ATL, flying Delta, just as Delta's April meltdown was beginning, and Delta didn't really get much bad press until several days into the cancellations, after tens of thousands of people had been inconvenienced. Meanwhile, United gets creamed after Dao and this lady's problem.
Dec 30, 2017, 1:04 pm
#379
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As most know there is a term for this --- "The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach the levels of their respective incompetence. The Peter Principle is based on the logical idea that competent employees will continue to be promoted, but at some point will be promoted into positions for which they are incompetent, and they will then remain in those positions because of the fact that they do not demonstrate any further competence that would get them recognized for additional promotion. According to the Peter Principle, every position in a given hierarchy will eventually be filled by employees who are incompetent to fulfill the job duties of their respective positions."
Dec 30, 2017, 2:05 pm
#380
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To complete the facts:
AAs NPS is lower than UAs at 3 - without the mentioned publicity incidents according to the same source.
https://npsbenchmarks.com/companies/...airlines-group
Mornimgconsult did some interesting testing post Dao on UA purchase intent here:
https://morningconsult.com/2017/12/1...al-that-wasnt/
Favorability ratings nosedived just after Dao bit are now just below where they were before the incident.
And only 1/3 of people in a separate poll correctly connected United to the Dao incident.
With AA flashing the red of its own lower than UA NPS my conclusion of the biggest NPS driver for a big network airline:
Keep the flights on time - something UA and AA failed at miserably after their mergers though UA has improved recently.
This particular incident is not even close to the scale of Dao.
It had a business impact but nowhere near 20 years of having a reliability crisis every 5 years or so (SFH 2000, mid 2000s bankruptcy, post 2012 merger integration).
AAs NPS is lower than UAs at 3 - without the mentioned publicity incidents according to the same source.
https://npsbenchmarks.com/companies/...airlines-group
Mornimgconsult did some interesting testing post Dao on UA purchase intent here:
https://morningconsult.com/2017/12/1...al-that-wasnt/
Favorability ratings nosedived just after Dao bit are now just below where they were before the incident.
And only 1/3 of people in a separate poll correctly connected United to the Dao incident.
With AA flashing the red of its own lower than UA NPS my conclusion of the biggest NPS driver for a big network airline:
Keep the flights on time - something UA and AA failed at miserably after their mergers though UA has improved recently.
This particular incident is not even close to the scale of Dao.
It had a business impact but nowhere near 20 years of having a reliability crisis every 5 years or so (SFH 2000, mid 2000s bankruptcy, post 2012 merger integration).
It is a point that some folks don't get. United's reputation is trashed. At this point its viewed as an airline that actively mistreats its customers, to the point that its an active punching bag for comedians, and enough people hate UA at this point that anything UA related gets clicks. E.g. the Economist, oh staid of staid publications had a piece on plot line movies for 2018 in its most recent issues, one of which was:
"Executive Decision. A group of terrorists hatch a plot to hijack an airline. But the flight is overbooked. When they refuse to leave their carefully chosen seats, two of their number are beaten to a pulp by United flight attendants. The other terrorists say on board but are too cowed to do anything."
United management burned their bridges with a series of service quality cuts starting in 2012 all backed up with a set of lies: "changes you will like"
Any company with an NPS of 10 (vs. say SWA at 62, and B6 at 68 or DL at 38) has put a target on its back. see https://customergauge.com/blog/net-p...-australia-cba ; https://customergauge.com/blog/2017-...dustry-so-far/
p.s. UA has reported NPS for 2017 of -8 (https://customer.guru/net-promoter-s...ental-holdings ) but its "estimate" but I think probably better reflects the post-Dao NPS.
"Executive Decision. A group of terrorists hatch a plot to hijack an airline. But the flight is overbooked. When they refuse to leave their carefully chosen seats, two of their number are beaten to a pulp by United flight attendants. The other terrorists say on board but are too cowed to do anything."
United management burned their bridges with a series of service quality cuts starting in 2012 all backed up with a set of lies: "changes you will like"
Any company with an NPS of 10 (vs. say SWA at 62, and B6 at 68 or DL at 38) has put a target on its back. see https://customergauge.com/blog/net-p...-australia-cba ; https://customergauge.com/blog/2017-...dustry-so-far/
p.s. UA has reported NPS for 2017 of -8 (https://customer.guru/net-promoter-s...ental-holdings ) but its "estimate" but I think probably better reflects the post-Dao NPS.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 30, 2017 at 3:27 pm Reason: quote updated to reflect Moderator edit; remove response to deleted material
Dec 30, 2017, 2:10 pm
#381
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That those of us who read the article realized that Alaska was not at all at fault, and the true blame lies with the woman's family, who sent off a confused, elderly person to travel alone.
Dec 30, 2017, 4:05 pm
#382
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Topic Reminder
Let's get back to the reported incident. There are plenty of financial threads. Will clear out the recent OT discussion and let's return to the incident that generated this thread.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
Let's get back to the reported incident. There are plenty of financial threads. Will clear out the recent OT discussion and let's return to the incident that generated this thread.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
Dec 30, 2017, 5:49 pm
#383
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,524
The problem with United is never really the incident itself, but how it responds. The Dao incident would not have been such a big deal had it not been for Oscar's terribly worded statement. (A customer was bloodied. Regardless of whose fault it was, just apologize!) This story wouldn't have legs if United had simply apologized and not thrown a paying customer under the bus. They should have just kept quiet from the start, said they would reach out directly to the customer and compensate her properly, and conduct an investigation to see what happened. Instead, they felt compelled to go to the media with a one-sided statement about a PX "cancelling her reservation." And once the PX fought back, United went completely quiet and started only sharing inconclusive screenshots with bloggers. Like, seriously, who runs their marketing/communications department? It's an embarrassment to those of us who are loyal to UA. (Delta, on the other hand, is always able to spin massive cancellations or outages for the better, by handing out $2 slices of pizza and running social campaigns about them.)
Dec 30, 2017, 8:29 pm
#384
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Again, the details reported at the time of the incident are as follows:
'"After thoroughly examining our electronic records, we found that upon receiving a notification that Flight 788 was delayed due to weather, the customer appears to have canceled her flight from Houston to Washington, D.C. within the United mobile app," United said in a statement.'
https://www.chron.com/news/politics/...p-12452258.php
"Simon was told by a gate attendant that her ticket was not in the system. Simon said the gate agent not only could not find her seat, but also could not find her ticket or name."The gate agent called over a second United agent who informed that I had no seat, not just the first class seat I had purchased, but no seat, period," Simon wrote. "I didn't even have a reservation any more."Simon was first told she may have cancelled her own reservation, before being told that united.com had changed her reservation about an hour earlier and that another passenger had been upgraded to her seat."
United Passenger Who Was Kicked Off Plane Unhappy With Airline Apology
The passengers reservation was initially "gone" and could not be found, then she is told that it had been changed an hour before. These two statements are contradictory. If the passenger had been told "I'm sorry, I show you on flight #XXX , it appears you changed your reservation" then I would believe UA. But that is not UA's story, nor is it consistent with what the passenger was told at the time.
This is why United has gone quite, because there is no way that the passenger did what you did and did not know it. And by the by, she has not said she got an e-mail, and if she did, UA certainly would have shared that with the Houston Chronicle and other papers who asked for UA's side of the story. Someones story does not add up, and it is not the passanger's story....
The just say no CS of CAL is now strong in UAL, and the response is never to admit fault, but instead to just make up a story. Delta with much better management understands that it needs to be responsive, even when its not Delta's fault. The costs in Pizza and CS gestures are cheap compared to the reputational costs. E.g. my stepmother, on a trip back from EZE, got stuck in the ATL power loss. While she is only a silver on DL, DL put her on UA to DEN, then on DL (first class, only seat left) back to SEA to get her back same day. They gave her meal vouchers for DEN, and then stuck miles in her account for the rather severe inconvenience. Note Delta has absolutely zero to do with the loss of power at ATL, but they tried to make it right.
First, thanks for the additional information. ^
Second, I am not suggesting that this incident is like Dao, nor do I think this incident will materially impact UA. My point was rather than a company with UA's horrible NPS numbers is not going to get a break.
Third, The UA NPS (of 10) is per-Dao (Jan 2017), the AA (of 3) is from September 2017. I posted another link showing a NPS of UA of -8 which is more recent; but "projected". And I think more in line with what UA's reputation is at this point.
Fourth, I have long felt that Parker was doing real damage, he has followed too much of the Smisik play book, and the NPS score shows it. That he can mess up so many things after the example of how not to do things given by UA c2012-2016 is a testament to that fact that he is too into his own preconceptions.
Fifth on the morning consulting article, I guess I have a different take on it.
(a) if today, when as you has stated above, AA's NPS score is not exactly so happening (a 3 is really bad....) that 52% would chose to buy from AA vs. 48% from UA when the prices are the same says little, other than that UA has a slightly worse brand. Had the question been asked about B6 or DL or SWA or AS it would have been interesting to see the results. For the life of me I can't see why they picked AA as the company to ask about.
(b) that in a " Dec. 11-12 poll of 2,039 U.S. adults, 33 percent could accurately name United as the airline connected to the Dao controversy" is actually the opposite of how the article views this information. That so many people remember and connect it to UA shows how bad UA's brand is. Only 1/4 of Americans can name all 3 branches of government, and right after the political conventions only 37% could name Pence, and 22% Kaine (see https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300325968.html ), yet 33% can ID united as the airline that beats up its passengers.
The reason why so many people jump on bad news about UA, and don't believe what UA says, is that UA has given lots of reasons to distrust United and expect poor product and service over the last five years.
'"After thoroughly examining our electronic records, we found that upon receiving a notification that Flight 788 was delayed due to weather, the customer appears to have canceled her flight from Houston to Washington, D.C. within the United mobile app," United said in a statement.'
https://www.chron.com/news/politics/...p-12452258.php
"Simon was told by a gate attendant that her ticket was not in the system. Simon said the gate agent not only could not find her seat, but also could not find her ticket or name."The gate agent called over a second United agent who informed that I had no seat, not just the first class seat I had purchased, but no seat, period," Simon wrote. "I didn't even have a reservation any more."Simon was first told she may have cancelled her own reservation, before being told that united.com had changed her reservation about an hour earlier and that another passenger had been upgraded to her seat."
United Passenger Who Was Kicked Off Plane Unhappy With Airline Apology
The passengers reservation was initially "gone" and could not be found, then she is told that it had been changed an hour before. These two statements are contradictory. If the passenger had been told "I'm sorry, I show you on flight #XXX , it appears you changed your reservation" then I would believe UA. But that is not UA's story, nor is it consistent with what the passenger was told at the time.
I can only speak to these 2, I cancelled my flight yesterday on the app (iPad if that matters) and had to clik OK or next 3 times before it cancelled, then a screen popped up about my refund going to my original form of payment
I got an email saying I cancelled the flight immediately and another about 45 min later saying my refund had been processed wait 2 weeks blah blah
I got an email saying I cancelled the flight immediately and another about 45 min later saying my refund had been processed wait 2 weeks blah blah
The problem with United is never really the incident itself, but how it responds. The Dao incident would not have been such a big deal had it not been for Oscar's terribly worded statement. (A customer was bloodied. Regardless of whose fault it was, just apologize!) This story wouldn't have legs if United had simply apologized and not thrown a paying customer under the bus. They should have just kept quiet from the start, said they would reach out directly to the customer and compensate her properly, and conduct an investigation to see what happened. Instead, they felt compelled to go to the media with a one-sided statement about a PX "cancelling her reservation." And once the PX fought back, United went completely quiet and started only sharing inconclusive screenshots with bloggers. Like, seriously, who runs their marketing/communications department? It's an embarrassment to those of us who are loyal to UA. (Delta, on the other hand, is always able to spin massive cancellations or outages for the better, by handing out $2 slices of pizza and running social campaigns about them.)
To complete the facts:
AAs NPS is lower than UAs at 3 - without the mentioned publicity incidents according to the same source.
https://npsbenchmarks.com/companies/...airlines-group
Mornimgconsult did some interesting testing post Dao on UA purchase intent here:
https://morningconsult.com/2017/12/1...al-that-wasnt/
Favorability ratings nosedived just after Dao bit are now just below where they were before the incident.
And only 1/3 of people in a separate poll correctly connected United to the Dao incident.
With AA flashing the red of its own lower than UA NPS my conclusion of the biggest NPS driver for a big network airline:
Keep the flights on time - something UA and AA failed at miserably after their mergers though UA has improved recently.
This particular incident is not even close to the scale of Dao.
It had a business impact but nowhere near 20 years of having a reliability crisis every 5 years or so (SFH 2000, mid 2000s bankruptcy, post 2012 merger integration).
AAs NPS is lower than UAs at 3 - without the mentioned publicity incidents according to the same source.
https://npsbenchmarks.com/companies/...airlines-group
Mornimgconsult did some interesting testing post Dao on UA purchase intent here:
https://morningconsult.com/2017/12/1...al-that-wasnt/
Favorability ratings nosedived just after Dao bit are now just below where they were before the incident.
And only 1/3 of people in a separate poll correctly connected United to the Dao incident.
With AA flashing the red of its own lower than UA NPS my conclusion of the biggest NPS driver for a big network airline:
Keep the flights on time - something UA and AA failed at miserably after their mergers though UA has improved recently.
This particular incident is not even close to the scale of Dao.
It had a business impact but nowhere near 20 years of having a reliability crisis every 5 years or so (SFH 2000, mid 2000s bankruptcy, post 2012 merger integration).
Second, I am not suggesting that this incident is like Dao, nor do I think this incident will materially impact UA. My point was rather than a company with UA's horrible NPS numbers is not going to get a break.
Third, The UA NPS (of 10) is per-Dao (Jan 2017), the AA (of 3) is from September 2017. I posted another link showing a NPS of UA of -8 which is more recent; but "projected". And I think more in line with what UA's reputation is at this point.
Fourth, I have long felt that Parker was doing real damage, he has followed too much of the Smisik play book, and the NPS score shows it. That he can mess up so many things after the example of how not to do things given by UA c2012-2016 is a testament to that fact that he is too into his own preconceptions.
Fifth on the morning consulting article, I guess I have a different take on it.
(a) if today, when as you has stated above, AA's NPS score is not exactly so happening (a 3 is really bad....) that 52% would chose to buy from AA vs. 48% from UA when the prices are the same says little, other than that UA has a slightly worse brand. Had the question been asked about B6 or DL or SWA or AS it would have been interesting to see the results. For the life of me I can't see why they picked AA as the company to ask about.
(b) that in a " Dec. 11-12 poll of 2,039 U.S. adults, 33 percent could accurately name United as the airline connected to the Dao controversy" is actually the opposite of how the article views this information. That so many people remember and connect it to UA shows how bad UA's brand is. Only 1/4 of Americans can name all 3 branches of government, and right after the political conventions only 37% could name Pence, and 22% Kaine (see https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300325968.html ), yet 33% can ID united as the airline that beats up its passengers.
The reason why so many people jump on bad news about UA, and don't believe what UA says, is that UA has given lots of reasons to distrust United and expect poor product and service over the last five years.
Dec 31, 2017, 12:43 am
#386
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I would like to thank WineCountryUA for keeping this thread open. Thank you, and have a happy 2018 to yourself and family, from kettle1.
Dec 31, 2017, 9:23 am
#387
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The passengers reservation was initially "gone" and could not be found, then she is told that it had been changed an hour before. These two statements are contradictory. If the passenger had been told "I'm sorry, I show you on flight #XXX , it appears you changed your reservation" then I would believe UA. But that is not UA's story, nor is it consistent with what the passenger was told at the time.
This is why United has gone quite, because there is no way that the passenger did what you did and did not know it. And by the by, she has not said she got an e-mail, and if she did, UA certainly would have shared that with the Houston Chronicle and other papers who asked for UA's side of the story. Someones story does not add up, and it is not the passanger's story....
The just say no CS of CAL is now strong in UAL, and the response is never to admit fault, but instead to just make up a story. Delta with much better management understands that it needs to be responsive, even when its not Delta's fault. The costs in Pizza and CS gestures are cheap compared to the reputational costs. E.g. my stepmother, on a trip back from EZE, got stuck in the ATL power loss. While she is only a silver on DL, DL put her on UA to DEN, then on DL (first class, only seat left) back to SEA to get her back same day. They gave her meal vouchers for DEN, and then stuck miles in her account for the rather severe inconvenience. Note Delta has absolutely zero to do with the loss of power at ATL, but they tried to make it right.
No, it's not "all I got," but there's no point arguing with someone who either believes, or wants the rest of us to believe, that Hurricane Harvey only hit UA "a bit harder" than AA or DL — a demonstrably laughable claim.
Last edited by joe_miami; Dec 31, 2017 at 9:30 am
Dec 31, 2017, 10:24 am
#388
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,866
But it would be nice to see more discussion on whether granting benefits & perks is a general practice of United & the other airlines, or is this an isolated incident?
Dec 31, 2017, 10:26 am
#389
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,592
It doesn't; but the passenger's phone would have been on one of a few networks, so if the request came from elsewhere that's evidence the passenger didn't do it.
The http headers might also be indicative. If they indicate a different phone model than the passenger has, that's also evidence.
The http headers might also be indicative. If they indicate a different phone model than the passenger has, that's also evidence.
Airlines make it extremely easy for anybody with the record locator and passenger information to change flights - it's very helpful for travelers who don't book their own flights (business people and family members of whoever books for their family), as well as those who don't want to register accounts, and relatively rarely abused. I'd be surprised if they didn't at least keep fairly detailed logs of how itinerary changes were made.
Dec 31, 2017, 11:08 am
#390
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UA has specifically said "the app," hasn't it?