Winning the West Coast
Nov 19, 2017, 9:44 pm
#61
Join Date: Oct 2017
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who the hell cares what the Top 10 destinations are ? I pick carriers based on the places *****I wanna go, not what a Top 10 list dictate I should go.
A trillion people can fly daily between OAK and TUS and I still have zero interest to visit that city.
A trillion people can fly daily between OAK and TUS and I still have zero interest to visit that city.
Nov 19, 2017, 9:52 pm
#62
Join Date: May 2013
Programs: UA Au Marriott Ti Hilton C
Posts: 159
Forgive my ignorance, but to what extent are these airports capacity limited by available gates or other factors? I don't fly to CA much these days, but when I do I'm struck by now crowded the airports are and (to my eyes) the relatively minimal addition of gates over the years.
That's anecdotal and I'm interested in a more informed assessment.
That's anecdotal and I'm interested in a more informed assessment.
Nov 20, 2017, 12:43 am
#63
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David
Nov 20, 2017, 6:02 am
#64
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UA has a shortage of planes, it has given up SFO to both Toronto/Montreal YYZ/YUL and LAX to Toronto Montreal, thats over 8 flights a day and 3 of them are wide body planes. Stupidity, and reality it will be a long time before UA is flying its own planes to Toronto.
Nov 20, 2017, 6:09 am
#65
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
Offering online connections from SJC/OAK to TUS does not help Delta win the West Coast (especially if you don’t consider Arizona to be the West Coast).
The only airline that is winning the entire West Coast is Southwest. Depending on what California airport you live near, different legacy carriers will be compelling.
The only airline that is winning the entire West Coast is Southwest. Depending on what California airport you live near, different legacy carriers will be compelling.
Nov 20, 2017, 6:26 am
#66
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Is DL the strongest in the West Coast? Of course not, WN is, as you pointed out. But UA weakens its position more than DL, AA, and AS, by its lack of service from the other Bay Area airports.
Nov 20, 2017, 7:20 am
#67
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
Sure it does. If DL has a schedule that works, and UA does not, DL wins the business of that West Coast customer.
Is DL the strongest in the West Coast? Of course not, WN is, as you pointed out. But UA weakens its position more than DL, AA, and AS, by its lack of service from the other Bay Area airports.
Is DL the strongest in the West Coast? Of course not, WN is, as you pointed out. But UA weakens its position more than DL, AA, and AS, by its lack of service from the other Bay Area airports.
Nov 20, 2017, 8:38 am
#69
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I think the topic is about Winning the West Coast from a general perspective, not winning a handful of individual customers. Using your logic, JetBlue is Winning the West Coast for people that live near Long Beach and travel to destinations served by JetBlue. Or United is winning in SoCal for customers that want to travel from multiple airports to SFO, ORD, DEN, etc.
Nov 20, 2017, 9:54 am
#71
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
Since there appears to be a propensity to define West Coast as California, let's look at some facts. The 10 largest airports in California are LAX, SFO, SAN, OAK, SJC, SNA, SMF, ONT, BUR, and LGB. Southwest and Delta serve all 10, while United serves 8. Southwest wins with the largest capacity at the 10 airports, with about 26% of seats. United is second, with 18%, while Delta has 9% of seats at the 10 largest airports (source: OAG). There's not an easy source of data for the number of routes each carrier serves from the airports, but I would imagine the ranking would be similar.
If you would like to define "winning" differently and present some facts to support the position that Delta is the winner and United is the loser (or some alternate iteration), it would be my pleasure to engage in further discourse.
Nov 20, 2017, 10:34 am
#72
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Kirby clearly realizes that cuts in west coast service (both before the merger in the 2007-9 crash period when UA pulled down its very fuel inefficient 737 fleet) and then post the CO take over have heavily eroded what was once a dominant position as the primary West Coast business carrier. AS/VX and DL are both trying to take over that roll, and both are ahead of UA at this point. I applaud Kirby for realizing how weak UA has become and the secondary impacts it is having, I just think that United's brand and product is so devalued at this point that just tossing extra capacity at it is not going to fix the issues UA has created for itself on the West Coast.
Nov 20, 2017, 10:57 am
#73
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
I don't define it that way, and I don't think most business people do either. The major industries on the West Coast tend to have facilities up and down the coast, e.g. Microsoft has a major presence near SFO, PDX, SFO/SJC, and to a lesser extent LAX/SNA. Intel has major facilities in PDX, SFO/SJC, SMF, PHX, SAN, SNA. The west coast is sort of like the accela corridor, there is a lot of connection between major cities and not just intra-CA.
Kirby clearly realizes that cuts in west coast service (both before the merger in the 2007-9 crash period when UA pulled down its very fuel inefficient 737 fleet) and then post the CO take over have heavily eroded what was once a dominant position as the primary West Coast business carrier. AS/VX and DL are both trying to take over that roll, and both are ahead of UA at this point. I applaud Kirby for realizing how weak UA has become and the secondary impacts it is having, I just think that United's brand and product is so devalued at this point that just tossing extra capacity at it is not going to fix the issues UA has created for itself on the West Coast.
Kirby clearly realizes that cuts in west coast service (both before the merger in the 2007-9 crash period when UA pulled down its very fuel inefficient 737 fleet) and then post the CO take over have heavily eroded what was once a dominant position as the primary West Coast business carrier. AS/VX and DL are both trying to take over that roll, and both are ahead of UA at this point. I applaud Kirby for realizing how weak UA has become and the secondary impacts it is having, I just think that United's brand and product is so devalued at this point that just tossing extra capacity at it is not going to fix the issues UA has created for itself on the West Coast.
Nov 20, 2017, 11:30 am
#74
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 575
I don't define it that way, and I don't think most business people do either. The major industries on the West Coast tend to have facilities up and down the coast, e.g. Microsoft has a major presence near SFO, PDX, SFO/SJC, and to a lesser extent LAX/SNA. Intel has major facilities in PDX, SFO/SJC, SMF, PHX, SAN, SNA. The west coast is sort of like the accela corridor, there is a lot of connection between major cities and not just intra-CA.
Kirby clearly realizes that cuts in west coast service (both before the merger in the 2007-9 crash period when UA pulled down its very fuel inefficient 737 fleet) and then post the CO take over have heavily eroded what was once a dominant position as the primary West Coast business carrier. AS/VX and DL are both trying to take over that roll, and both are ahead of UA at this point. I applaud Kirby for realizing how weak UA has become and the secondary impacts it is having, I just think that United's brand and product is so devalued at this point that just tossing extra capacity at it is not going to fix the issues UA has created for itself on the West Coast.
Kirby clearly realizes that cuts in west coast service (both before the merger in the 2007-9 crash period when UA pulled down its very fuel inefficient 737 fleet) and then post the CO take over have heavily eroded what was once a dominant position as the primary West Coast business carrier. AS/VX and DL are both trying to take over that roll, and both are ahead of UA at this point. I applaud Kirby for realizing how weak UA has become and the secondary impacts it is having, I just think that United's brand and product is so devalued at this point that just tossing extra capacity at it is not going to fix the issues UA has created for itself on the West Coast.
Agree with the sentiment, even if a bit hyperbolic. I’m not suggesting UA fly LAX Fresno. But LAX SJC for example is a indicative of the lack of network that matters. It may not be the most profitable route but by not serving it, an LAX based GS has to fly another carrier to get there. And Silicon Valley is home to some of the most profitable businesses in the world. Why shy a way from that market? Not unlike the JFK repercussions Kirby alluded to once.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Nov 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
Nov 20, 2017, 1:18 pm
#75
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I don't define "winning" as showing up; that's called participation.
Since there appears to be a propensity to define West Coast as California, let's look at some facts. The 10 largest airports in California are LAX, SFO, SAN, OAK, SJC, SNA, SMF, ONT, BUR, and LGB. Southwest and Delta serve all 10, while United serves 8. Southwest wins with the largest capacity at the 10 airports, with about 26% of seats. United is second, with 18%, while Delta has 9% of seats at the 10 largest airports (source: OAG). There's not an easy source of data for the number of routes each carrier serves from the airports, but I would imagine the ranking would be similar.
If you would like to define "winning" differently and present some facts to support the position that Delta is the winner and United is the loser (or some alternate iteration), it would be my pleasure to engage in further discourse.
Since there appears to be a propensity to define West Coast as California, let's look at some facts. The 10 largest airports in California are LAX, SFO, SAN, OAK, SJC, SNA, SMF, ONT, BUR, and LGB. Southwest and Delta serve all 10, while United serves 8. Southwest wins with the largest capacity at the 10 airports, with about 26% of seats. United is second, with 18%, while Delta has 9% of seats at the 10 largest airports (source: OAG). There's not an easy source of data for the number of routes each carrier serves from the airports, but I would imagine the ranking would be similar.
If you would like to define "winning" differently and present some facts to support the position that Delta is the winner and United is the loser (or some alternate iteration), it would be my pleasure to engage in further discourse.
"Serving" is not good enough. UA serves SJC to DEN/IAH/ORD/EWR. If you're flying within the Western states, UA's network out of SJC does you no good.
DL, OTOH, serves SJC to SEA/LAX/SLC/MSP/ATL. If you're flying within the Western states, DL has a much more comprehensive network out of SJC. UA is not even a player.
IF UA has a nonstop ex-SFO that gets you to where you want to go about when you want to go, UA can win the business.
If UA does not have a non-stop ex-SFO that meets your requirements, then UA is often not the strongest carrier in the West Coast.