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Availability changes based on connection? GPU across seperate tickets help!

Availability changes based on connection? GPU across seperate tickets help!

Old Nov 2, 2017, 11:10 pm
  #1  
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Availability changes based on connection? GPU across seperate tickets help!

I am flying from Chicago to Tel Aviv. I want to fly Polaris on the 777-300ER, and have a GPU from a GS (I can clear into R or PN). The logical routing of ORD-EWR-TLV does not have upgrade availability, and Premier Desk says waitlisting to TLV is usually no dice. So I looked elsewhere. I found that they have Polaris operating from SFO-FRA and there is PN9 and R9! Crazy! I have several issues with obtaining this flight however:

1. I cannot book from ORD-SFO-FRA-TLV, the fare immediately books into Y, no discounted fares. Is there a way to fly from Chicago, keeping the connection in SFO, but be able to get a discounted fare. Premier Desk says it is not possible because SFO is not in the routing from ORD to TLV. Is there any way to change connection cities... etc... to change this? I assume no. Since I am flying from ORD regardless, I'd rather take advantage of the GPU if it could upgrade the domestic segment as well, but it would have to be on the same ticket.

2. Again, I assume this is a no. But since the pricing does not like me connecting in SFO and makes me book into full fare, if I instead book separate from SFO and also book separately the connection from ORD, is there a chance they would somehow be able to apply the GPU all the way thru even though they are on separate tickets?

3. I have been playing around with different origin cities in the routing that would include SFO on a discounted fare (all West Coast cities + PHX, LAS etc).
When I look at SFO-FRA direct, it will show P9 PN9 R9 RN9.
When I look at LAX-SFO-FRA, it will show P9 PN9 R0 RN0 on the SFO-FRA segment. Again, same date/same flight as the direct search. Even better, when I search PHX-SFO-FRA, it comes up as P0 PN0 R0 RN0. Why is this happening. It is the same date/flight, but based on the origin, the upgrade availability completely changes. Is this by design, or an error?

TL;DR: I have no idea what I'm doing. Help!
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Old Nov 2, 2017, 11:28 pm
  #2  
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
1. I cannot book from ORD-SFO-FRA-TLV, the fare immediately books into Y, no discounted fares. Is there a way to fly from Chicago, keeping the connection in SFO, but be able to get a discounted fare. Premier Desk says it is not possible because SFO is not in the routing from ORD to TLV. Is there any way to change connection cities... etc... to change this? I assume no. Since I am flying from ORD regardless, I'd rather take advantage of the GPU if it could upgrade the domestic segment as well, but it would have to be on the same ticket.
No. You can't route ORD-SFO-*-TLV as it's not permitted by the routing rules. You also cannot combine a discount SFO-TLV fare with a domestic fare. While possible, I doubt this would change for a different fare break point on the West Coast.

Originally Posted by NoDestinations
2. Again, I assume this is a no. But since the pricing does not like me connecting in SFO and makes me book into full fare, if I instead book separate from SFO and also book separately the connection from ORD, is there a chance they would somehow be able to apply the GPU all the way thru even though they are on separate tickets?
Extremely doubtful, as you are already going into a grey area by making a split ticket connection to book what is otherwise not allowed on a single ticket.

Originally Posted by NoDestinations
3. I have been playing around with different origin cities in the routing that would include SFO on a discounted fare (all West Coast cities + PHX, LAS etc).
When I look at SFO-FRA direct, it will show P9 PN9 R9 RN9.
When I look at LAX-SFO-FRA, it will show P9 PN9 R0 RN0 on the SFO-FRA segment. Again, same date/same flight as the direct search. Even better, when I search PHX-SFO-FRA, it comes up as P0 PN0 R0 RN0. Why is this happening. It is the same date/flight, but based on the origin, the upgrade availability completely changes. Is this by design, or an error?
It's "by design" in that for a revenue booking class, all that matters is availability on LAX-FRA or PHX-FRA. However, upgrades clear on a per-segment basis, and so you should only care about SFO-FRA as an individual segment. They don't care enough to make Expert Mode behave differently for R and PN than for other classes.
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Old Nov 3, 2017, 12:50 am
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Originally Posted by findark
No. You can't route ORD-SFO-*-TLV as it's not permitted by the routing rules. You also cannot combine a discount SFO-TLV fare with a domestic fare. While possible, I doubt this would change for a different fare break point on the West Coast.
I agree. UA isn't particularly interested in selling ORD-SFO-*-TLV because it adds a minimum of 50% to the flight distance.

OP: The routing rules for ORD-TLV are actually pretty flexible, but they don't let you go very far west of Chicago. You can route through BOS, DTW, ATL, PHL, IAD, IAH, EWR, JFK (requires a change of airport), YYZ, or YUL. You can also fly through just about any major European city.

Why does that matter? It gives you two ways to use a GPU. 1 - look for PN space on a UA flight to Europe. 2. Check for business class award availability from any of those gateway cities to FRA on Lufthansa (LH). The GPU can be used on Lufthansa flights, and open business class award inventory is an excellent indicator that it would clear immediately. Note: if you use the GPU on Lufthansa, it's only good for the one segment -- it won't extend to any UA positioning flights, or to the FRA-TLV flight on LH.

In either of these cases, you'd be connecting twice, but you'd also get the long leg in business. (BTW, there's no need to look for R inventory when applying a GS GPU. PN >= R, so you can just look for PN).

Finally, just in case: did you try searching EWR-TLV for PN space? (Not ORD-TLV?) In the unlikely event that they opened PN on EWR-TLV, it might still not show on a search from ORD-TLV, as you've found.
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Old Nov 3, 2017, 1:36 am
  #4  
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
.... But since the pricing does not like me connecting in SFO and makes me book into full fare, if I instead book separate from SFO and also book separately the connection from ORD, is there a chance they would somehow be able to apply the GPU all the way thru even though they are on separate tickets? ....
No, a single instrument cannot be used on two seperate tickets.

As for the R availability varying based on routing, see https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unit...h-flights.html

Also, you may run into Fare Class has Inventory - Not Able to Book into? as you try to piece together segments.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 1:43 pm
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Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things, and the answers thus far are accurate, so I'll just add my 2 cents on the routing. I've flown SFO-FRA quite a bunch, and also fly SFO-ORD very often.

Since they would need to be a separate res, give yourself plenty of time for the SFO connection (I would say min 2 hours). Once booked, you can call in and have UA put a note in the PNR's to "link" the reservations. This is just a fall back measure in case of some issue.

You won't likely be able to use the Polaris lounge in ORD since you won't be on the Polaris ticket yet. SFO polaris lounge isn't done yet, and the old UA first lounge in intl is a bit crowded these days. SFO is a fine airport to kill time though. Also give yourself plenty of time in FRA. I've had so many issues where I had to run through that airport my min connection time there is 3 hours these days. The Senator lounge is a fine place to relax, freshen up, and pass time.

It sounds like a lot more flying to get the upgrade to clear, but if that's the only way for the R fare it's not that bad. Plus you've have a nice ride over to FRA. Just some thoughts. Safe travels!
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 2:23 pm
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Originally Posted by rattydukes

You won't likely be able to use the Polaris lounge in ORD since you won't be on the Polaris ticket yet. SFO polaris lounge isn't done yet, and the old UA first lounge in intl is a bit crowded these days. SFO is a fine airport to kill time though. Also give yourself plenty of time in FRA. I've had so many issues where I had to run through that airport my min connection time there is 3 hours these days. The Senator lounge is a fine place to relax, freshen up, and pass time.
Actually OP would have access to Polaris lounge, as long as you can present a same-day Polaris Business/First BP.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 2:36 pm
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
and Premier Desk says waitlisting to TLV is usually no dice.
What day of the week? I'm 3/3 myself on that route this year (EWR-TLV or TLV-EWR), and 3/4 on sponsoring co-workers - with all of them being waitlisted before clearing. Which day of the week you're flying makes a big difference.
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Old Nov 9, 2017, 10:33 pm
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Originally Posted by docbert
What day of the week? I'm 3/3 myself on that route this year (EWR-TLV or TLV-EWR), and 3/4 on sponsoring co-workers - with all of them being waitlisted before clearing. Which day of the week you're flying makes a big difference.
Flexible. What day do you recommend? Also, which flight? 85 (earlier in the evening around 4) or 90 (11pm departure)

Also, can you provide details on upgrade clearance i.e. time of upgrade, booking class, status of traveler (when co-sponsoring) etc.

Last edited by NoDestinations; Nov 9, 2017 at 10:39 pm
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Old Nov 10, 2017, 6:16 am
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
Flexible. What day do you recommend? Also, which flight? 85 (earlier in the evening around 4) or 90 (11pm departure)

Also, can you provide details on upgrade clearance i.e. time of upgrade, booking class, status of traveler (when co-sponsoring) etc.
IME, one of the best days to fly is on Shabbat-I've never missed an UG.
Also, TUE/WED have been pretty good.
The 2300 departure is an easier UG.

Good Luck!

Last edited by zombietooth; Nov 10, 2017 at 7:41 am
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Old Nov 10, 2017, 9:32 am
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I don't believe the 777-300ER is used for both flights from EWR-TLV. I think it depends on the day. I also think you have a good chance of upgrading. As noted above, there are certain days that are better than others. Shabbat and middle of the week.

Harder on the 777-200, I think because, I believe, there are less seats up front. Plus, the Polaris on that is not Polaris. Same with SFO to TLV.

Also, if you fly SFO to FRA then I think Lufthansa uses the Airbus for FRA-TLV and, if I recall, it is not lie flat. And I think it is about a 4 hour flight. Seems like going through SFO would add a lot of time and much (or all) of that extra time in a non-lie flat.
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Old Nov 10, 2017, 4:54 pm
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Originally Posted by daisyatl
I don't believe the 777-300ER is used for both flights from EWR-TLV.
Originally Posted by zombietooth
IME, one of the best days to fly is on Shabbat
Good Luck!
Did you guys clear in advance or at check in?
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 1:29 pm
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
Did you guys clear in advance or at check in?
If I have booked a Shabbat flight, I usually clear by the 96 hour window. TUE/WED flights have cleared as late as at boarding. I can't remember missing a TLV upgrade on TUE/WED/SAT or late FRI.

OP, when you are searching in "Expert" mode, try to make sure there is a lot of Z/P/PN space if R=0. This will increase your chances of the UG coming through.

Last edited by zombietooth; Nov 11, 2017 at 2:36 pm
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 3:04 pm
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
Did you guys clear in advance or at check in?
My one time clearing TLV-EWR was shabbat and happened about 36hrs in advance.

Re: your original inquiry about ORD-SFO-FRA-TLV, you may want to try using google flights to search ORD-SFO + SFO-TLV with dates lined up. For some reason they may in some cases be able to combine separate fares into a single ticket.
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Old Nov 12, 2017, 2:36 am
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Originally Posted by zombietooth
OP, when you are searching in "Expert" mode, try to make sure there is a lot of Z/P/PN space if R=0. This will increase your chances of the UG coming through.
I am clearing using a GS GPU, which I will clear based on GS status/fare class (even though I am a Silver), then at T-24, the waitlist is reprioritized by status of traveller and then fare class. Since it is a GS GPU, I can clear into PN, to which I have found none on any UA90 ever--I have since only found one (diamond in the rough) PN on a TLV flight. It is for next Thursday(11/23/2017), and all fare classes, with the exception of G and N, show 9. That includes R9 RN9 P9 PN9 etc. etc. Since it'd not rather take a gamble, and would much rather connect in SFO (Centurion Lounge), and FRA (Lufthansa Welcome Lounge), and also need to connect via SFO on the way back, should I just book ORD-SFO-FRA-TLV in your guys' opinion. I am in no way looking for the shortest or most efficient routing, and would be glad to spend more time in the air . I need to connect via SFO on the way back, because I am departing with a group, and the group departure flight (EL AL to JFK) leaves at 00:45, and UA to SFO leaves at 00:55, perfect timing. Extra PQM would be nice, Centurion Lounge with showers on arrival, even in E+ on the way back does not sound that bad. Is E+ on Dreamliner for 15hr tolerable?

Sorry for long laundry list of questions this is just my train of thought . Thanks in for all of your insight!

Last edited by NoDestinations; Nov 12, 2017 at 2:41 am
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Old Nov 12, 2017, 2:52 am
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Originally Posted by NoDestinations
It is for next Thursday(11/23/2017), and all fare classes, with the exception of G and N, show 9.
Not particularly surprising, given that 11/23 is US Thanksgiving.

Originally Posted by NoDestinations
should I just book ORD-SFO-FRA-TLV in your guys' opinion.
SFO is not a valid connection point on an ORD-TLV ticket, and it's likely to be extremely expensive to book this on a single itinerary. You can purchase separately ORD-SFO and SFO-(FRA)-TLV tickets. However, if your ORD-SFO flight is delayed, and you end up missing your SFO-FRA flight as a result, UA is not obligated to put you on another flight. While, in practice, they tend to be flexible, there's a good chance you'd end up back in coach. I'd leave 4-6 hours in SFO as a minimum, and overnight would be better if it's feasible.

The situation is the same on the return, but it's less of a problem because SFO-ORD runs frequently. If you miss one, there's a good chance they'd put you on the next one.

Originally Posted by NoDestinations
Is E+ on Dreamliner for 15hr tolerable?
Hundreds of people tolerate it daily. 15 hours in any coach seat, on any airline, is going to be uncomfortable. It's simply a matter of degree.
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