Crossing the line? Rights of UA passenger when animals are on the flight.
2 Attachment(s)
Hello all,
I want to share my experience on flight UA1137 from LGA-DEN on 25-OCT-2017. Please see attached two pictures. No identifiable (facial) information there for privacy. Considering the length of the segment (approx 4.5 hours) I upgraded my flight with an RPU to First Class. However, the passenger next to me, I believe, really crossed the line by bringing in a large, furry pet dog masquerading as a service dog, which was intruding my space, sniffing, sneezing, shivering, making some weird noises, and trying to lick me. You can tell it is an untrained dog and not really a service animal. In the past, I have had experience with genuine passengers bring in genuine service animals notably in the bulkhead seats and have had no problems whatsoever travelling along them. They were well trained, docile, and does not try to interfere other people's space. However, it was not the case here. It was a REALLY BAD experience. The passenger boarded a bit late just before boarding was complete. All other first class seats were taken as many were offered CPU. She did not have any apparent disability - she was browsing on her smart phone all throughout (not blind), listening to music (no hearing impairment), carried a huge carry on (no physical challenges). I have a special needs disabled son, so I know a thing or two about physical and psychological disability. I am a lifelong vegetarian and an animal lover too...but when United turns a blind eye to people abusing the service dog policy by bringing in large, untrained pets as service dogs to avoid cargo hold, it is really crossing a line and when it puts my 4.5 hour journey into a terrible misery. I hope United makes changes to its policy to stop such abuse. thanks for your time! |
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987572)
I hope United makes changes to its policy to stop such abuse.
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Both of the people are pretty recognizable.
This s a common problem with animals. Until a real verification system is put in place, nothing is going to change. |
Originally Posted by mahasamatman
(Post 28987582)
It's not United, it's the federal government.
What rights do I have as a passenger if I don't want to fly next to an animal? What if I am allergic to dogs or cats? Will United downgrade me to Economy if there was a seat available? or do I have to give up my seat and be stuck in the airport? |
It does not appear to be a service animal. Rather, an emotional support animal.
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Originally Posted by mahasamatman
(Post 28987582)
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987572)
I hope United makes changes to its policy to stop such abuse.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trav...-airlines.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trav...vice-dogs.html So for those wanting to discuss the general topic of ESA ("Emotional Support Animals"), please head off to one of the above threads. Such posts here will be removed. Passenger rights / what UA will do if you don't want to sit near the animal, are valid for the UA forum. WineCountryUA UA coModerator |
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987608)
Last I checked was it was due to ADA.
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Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987572)
Hello all,
I want to share my experience on flight UA1137 from LGA-DEN on 25-OCT-2017. Please see attached two pictures. No identifiable (facial) information there for privacy. Considering the length of the segment (approx 4.5 hours) I upgraded my flight with an RPU to First Class. However, the passenger next to me, I believe, really crossed the line by bringing in a large, furry pet dog masquerading as a service dog, which was intruding my space, sniffing, sneezing, shivering, making some weird noises, and trying to lick me. You can tell it is an untrained dog and not really a service animal. In the past, I have had experience with genuine passengers bring in genuine service animals notably in the bulkhead seats and have had no problems whatsoever travelling along them. They were well trained, docile, and does not try to interfere other people's space. However, it was not the case here. It was a REALLY BAD experience. The passenger boarded a bit late just before boarding was complete. All other first class seats were taken as many were offered CPU. She did not have any apparent disability - she was browsing on her smart phone all throughout (not blind), listening to music (no hearing impairment), carried a huge carry on (no physical challenges). I have a special needs disabled son, so I know a thing or two about physical and psychological disability. I am a lifelong vegetarian and an animal lover too...but when United turns a blind eye to people abusing the service dog policy by bringing in large, untrained pets as service dogs to avoid cargo hold, it is really crossing a line and when it puts my 4.5 hour journey into a terrible misery. I hope United makes changes to its policy to stop such abuse. thanks for your time! |
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987608)
What rights do I have as a passenger if I don't want to fly next to an animal? What if I am allergic to dogs or cats? The ACAA was written to make sure that access is granted disabled passengers. Your minor inconvenience doesn't trump their access. The FAA has interpreted the ACAA to apply to comfort animals, not just service animals. |
I agree the dog is annoying,
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United's Problem not Yours!
Originally Posted by Baze
(Post 28987667)
The second picture alone would have had me in that girls face telling her to get her dog under control. That is unacceptable on it's own without your descriptions of what was going on. No need for you to be docile and appearing to accept it. Did you confront the girl? Did you say anything to anybody? Did you talk to the FA? Write into the DOT about the abuse of the ESA guidelines. Don't know what it would do but it would get it on record.
I fly a lot out of SFO and the check in agents there do a great job of making sure the documentation is up to date and correct. I've seen them turn away passengers. But in LAX I've seen check in agents not even ask for proof. So its definitely united problems. |
Originally Posted by PsuedoEuropeanGuy
(Post 28987751)
....
So write to United and make it known that their agent probably failed to screen this customer. I fly a lot out of SFO and the check in agents there do a great job of making sure the documentation is up to date and correct. I've seen them turn away passengers. But in LAX I've seen check in agents not even ask for proof. So its definitely united problems. |
I would love to sit next to that dog, some people have all the luck ^
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I am confused on the pictures.
Is OP the pax in row 2 aisle? If so, who took the picture. If not, what is he talking about? I have a real issue with faux emotional support animals. But I would simply kick them out of my feet area if they encroached, The jeans guy seamed happy with the dog. P.S.: I actually like dogs and would not be literally kicking it out of the way. |
Originally Posted by chavala
(Post 28987752)
I think it's very easy to get that "documentation".
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Originally Posted by mahasamatman
(Post 28987630)
I don't think the ADA applies to airlines. I believe it's actually the ACAA.
14CFR§382.117(e) |
Originally Posted by sexykitten7
(Post 28988028)
If United screened just some of these letters by calling up the "doctor" and asking them about (3) below, they would find that most doctors have never even met the patient let alone treated them. Many of these "doctors" are not treating the patient at all, they just write them a letter for which the going rate is $125 as I recall. "(e) If a passenger seeks to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal, you are not required to accept the animal for transportation in the cabin unless the passenger provides you current documentation (i.e., no older than one year from the date of the passenger's scheduled initial flight) on the letterhead of a licensed mental health professional (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker, including a medical doctor specifically treating the passenger's mental or emotional disability) stating the following: (1) The passenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders—Fourth Edition (DSM IV); (2) The passenger needs the emotional support or psychiatric service animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at the passenger's destination; ******(3) The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional, and the passenger is under his or her professional care; and (4) The date and type of the mental health professional's license and the state or other jurisdiction in which it was issued." |
As someone who is very allergic to dogs and cats, having one in the cabin, let alone next to me, would just about kill me with sneezing and teary eyes. I understand the need for real service dogs, but this has all gone too far.
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Nice looking dog.Very well groomed.
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The airline is required to allow the animals as provided for under the ACAA.
Below are the requirements for an emotional support animal from the United web site. They do have to submit the documentation in advance and United contacts the mental health care professional to verify. It isn't left to the gate agent to validate. Emotional support and psychiatric assist animals Emotional support and psychiatric assist animals are also accepted in cabin for qualified individuals with a disability if certain documentation requirements are met. Additional documentation may also be required for an animal traveling to an international destination. Please note that not all international destinations allow the entry of animals, and restrictions vary by country. Customers should contact the appropriate consulate or embassy to make sure that all necessary procedures are followed. An animal should sit at the customer's feet without protruding into the aisles to comply with safety regulations. Customers may elect to use an approved in-cabin kennel for smaller animals. Exit row seating is prohibited. Refer to the U.S. Department of Transportation 14 CFR Part 382 or contact United for additional information. Customers traveling with an emotional support or psychiatric assist animal must provide a minimum 48-hour advance notification to the United Accessibility Desk by 1) calling 1-800-228-2744 from within the United States or Canada, or from elsewhere calling the United Customer Contact Center and asking to be connected to the Accessibility Desk and 2) submitting the required documentation by fax (1-872-825-0208) or email ([email protected]). The Accessibility Desk must receive and validate the required documentation prior to the time of travel. Verification of documentation will include United contacting your mental health care professional. If we are unable to validate the documentation or if the advance notification is not given, customers will be required to transport the animal as a pet, and pet fees will apply. |
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28987608)
Last I checked was it was due to ADA...but the airlines still have the right to verify if it was a genuine need and ask for supporting documentation. And can decide if it meets the standards of disability. Heck, the gate agents have rights to call security to arrest you, even if you mildly disagree with them.
What rights do I have as a passenger if I don't want to fly next to an animal? What if I am allergic to dogs or cats? Will United downgrade me to Economy if there was a seat available? or do I have to give up my seat and be stuck in the airport? I always wonder about this as I am seriously allergic to cats and the effects can last for days. I will skip a social event if there is a cat present. |
Originally Posted by LarryJ
(Post 28988333)
The airline is required to allow the animals as provided for under the ACAA.
Below are the requirements for an emotional support animal from the United web site. They do have to submit the documentation in advance and United contacts the mental health care professional to verify. It isn't left to the gate agent to validate. Emotional support and psychiatric assist animals Emotional support and psychiatric assist animals are also accepted in cabin for qualified individuals with a disability if certain documentation requirements are met. Additional documentation may also be required for an animal traveling to an international destination. Please note that not all international destinations allow the entry of animals, and restrictions vary by country. Customers should contact the appropriate consulate or embassy to make sure that all necessary procedures are followed. An animal should sit at the customer's feet without protruding into the aisles to comply with safety regulations. Customers may elect to use an approved in-cabin kennel for smaller animals. Exit row seating is prohibited. Refer to the U.S. Department of Transportation 14 CFR Part 382 or contact United for additional information. Customers traveling with an emotional support or psychiatric assist animal must provide a minimum 48-hour advance notification to the United Accessibility Desk by 1) calling 1-800-228-2744 from within the United States or Canada, or from elsewhere calling the United Customer Contact Center and asking to be connected to the Accessibility Desk and 2) submitting the required documentation by fax (1-872-825-0208) or email ([email protected]). The Accessibility Desk must receive and validate the required documentation prior to the time of travel. Verification of documentation will include United contacting your mental health care professional. If we are unable to validate the documentation or if the advance notification is not given, customers will be required to transport the animal as a pet, and pet fees will apply. |
b.s. the space in front of my seat is my space. If I had a dog intruding it I would ask the the FA to move the other pax. Else I would ask for a full refund from United.
If it necessary to bring these on board, they have to stay in their carriers. I have seen the FA enforce this before ... not sure how they could let a dog run around a cabin ... IMO it is also a safety concern. I would send the pics to UA and ask for a full refund. |
Originally Posted by nlkm9
(Post 28988339)
I always wonder about this as I am seriously allergic to cats and the effects can last for days. I will skip a social event if there is a cat present.
Originally Posted by nlkm9
(Post 28988342)
so "transporting as a pet" means it has to fit below the seat, correct?
You also cannot carry a pet in cabin if the flight enters or travels through Australia, Hawaii, or Guam, or if it's a 747, 757, 767, 777, or 787. Basically you can't carry pets on Boeings. |
Originally Posted by cfischer
(Post 28988455)
b.s. the space in front of my seat is my space. If I had a dog intruding it I would ask the the FA to move the other pax. Else I would ask for a full refund from United.
If it necessary to bring these on board, they have to stay in their carriers. I have seen the FA enforce this before ... not sure how they could let a dog run around a cabin ... IMO it is also a safety concern. I would send the pics to UA and ask for a full refund. |
Originally Posted by kyanar
(Post 28988488)
.... You also cannot carry a pet in cabin ..... or if it's a 747, 757, 767, 777, or 787. Basically you can't carry pets on Boeings.
Restrictions based on aircraft, cabin and seat
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Originally Posted by WineCountryUA
(Post 28988591)
That restriction only applies to the premium cabin
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PASSenger with allergy will be asked to move. I’ve seen it on United numerous times including deboarded if too many dogs are onboard.
Sadly, dog owner should declare prior to boarding and GA should be aware so you can tell a fake comfort dog is FA/GA have no report of animal onboard. |
A relative of mine has a trained service dog with her at all times. United misunderstood when she booked a flight recently and thought it was an ESA. The degree of documentation required for ESAs is extensive and United stonewalled her for quite a while when she was trying to tell them the animal was a service animal and not an ESA.
That doesn't excuse the behavior of this dog, and unfortunately there are no public access training requirements for ESAs. But, it's important to know that United is aware of the issue with out-of-control ESAs and has used the extent of its legal capacity to, as best it can, prevent "fake" ESAs from making it on board. Also, by the way, representing an animal as a service animal when it isn't is a serious crime in the USA. |
UA does not follow their own rules
Originally Posted by WineCountryUA
(Post 28988591)
That restriction only applies to the premium cabin
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Originally Posted by nigos
(Post 28988752)
I previously reported on FT (and wrote to GS) that on a PS flight there were two dogs in bulkhead seats in first class. Neither was in their carrier and one paid attention throughout the flight to any food that was on my tray. The dog's owner slept through most of the flight. GS responded to me claiming that they have to allow emotional support animals and they totally ignored their published policy which I cited in my email. So the bottom line is what they publish in terms of policy about pets has little to do with what actually happens on a UA flight.
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Originally Posted by nigos
(Post 28988752)
I previously reported on FT (and wrote to GS) that on a PS flight there were two dogs in bulkhead seats in first class. Neither was in their carrier and one paid attention throughout the flight to any food that was on my tray. The dog's owner slept through most of the flight. GS responded to me claiming that they have to allow emotional support animals and they totally ignored their published policy which I cited in my email. So the bottom line is what they publish in terms of policy about pets has little to do with what actually happens on a UA flight.
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Apologies. I have cropped the images better now, and hopefully it is okay now?
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Originally Posted by nlkm9
(Post 28988342)
so "transporting as a pet" means it has to fit below the seat, correct?
Originally Posted by cfischer
(Post 28988455)
If it necessary to bring these on board, they have to stay in their carriers.
Federal regulations (ACAA) prohibit an airline from requiring a service animal, including emotional support animals, travel in a carrier. |
Originally Posted by surram
(Post 28988801)
Apologies. I have cropped the images better now, and hopefully it is okay now?
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I didn't confront the passenger to avoid appearing as insensitive or create any problem. I am of Asian descent and after what happened to Dr. David Dao on United, I am playing it safe in-flight. But I wanted to share a piece of my mind in this forum, after my flight, as I thought it was egregious.
Originally Posted by Baze
(Post 28987667)
The second picture alone would have had me in that girls face telling her to get her dog under control. That is unacceptable on it's own without your descriptions of what was going on. No need for you to be docile and appearing to accept it. Did you confront the girl? Did you say anything to anybody? Did you talk to the FA? Write into the DOT about the abuse of the ESA guidelines. Don't know what it would do but it would get it on record.
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Originally Posted by kyanar
(Post 28988488)
There was a recent case discussed on FT where someone reported they were fatally allergic to dogs and there was such an ESA on board, so United denied boarding to the pax with allergy.
Yes and No. if it doesn't fit under the seat, UA can carry the pet in the hold, which costs a heck of a lot more. You also cannot carry a pet in cabin if the flight enters or travels through Australia, Hawaii, or Guam, or if it's a 747, 757, 767, 777, or 787. Basically you can't carry pets on Boeings. |
Originally Posted by Dublin_rfk
(Post 28988529)
Ditto. I have seen people escorted off of planes and in hand cuffs for not keeping their “Service” animal in control. [ LIR - EWR 02/16 ]. But it took a passenger speaking first to the owner of said service animal and them the FA and them the purser.
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UAL has a customer service rep answering cust9mer care who has a titled in disability clientele.
My biggest complaint of UA is their lack of pet policy enforcement and unfortunately I think it will hurt them if/when a delayed flight turns into a zoo. The most pet crazy routes I’ve experienced has been to/from MIA (other retirement airports), SFO and LAX. I love pets but find it selfish to inconvenient other passengers who have no choice or option to reject having an extra neighbor. Some folks are really afraid of animals and causes them anxiety or allergies which seems insane airline cares more are about peanuts reacti9n vs. dog reactions. |
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