spin88

+1. I don't know much about, nor follow AA, and I have flown them only a few times in the last few years (SFO-PHX, and I think twice in FC SFO-PHL). Looking from the outside it appears Parker is making some of the same mistakes that Jeff made.

I do fly Delta a lot now, and I read their forum on FT and elsewhere, and I have paid a lot of attention to them as I have bought and sold their stock 4 times, making a killing each time. As a passenger there are some issues in common with UA (DAL also has a bunch of crappy 739ers, junky, uncomfortable planes). Upgrades are also harder to get on DL than in the past, but they do it via selling discount P, not via offering TODs. The result is that on short hops I get upgraded as a PLT, something that would not happen on UA. Skypesos are a joke. If you are flying an airline to collect miles for free trips, probably not the best place to go (not that UA is too hot in this department now)

But in other respects - either by design or accident - Delta has done some improvements. Their A321s are very nice, a much nicer A/C than anything UA is currently flying, and they are adding the cs100/cs300, which will be nicer still. Delta is also keeping the 777s 3-3-3, and having added the 350XWB vs. the cramped 787 on UA (with seats .2" narrower than on a 737) every delta plane will shortly be more comfortable long haul than what UA offers other than on the remaining 767s in Y. Delta is adding PE, and if you check out the DAL forum you will see the universal view is that Delta's food/drink is not bad. Delta Skyclubs are also much nicer than the UCs.

There is simply not the level of unhappiness with DL on FT that their is with UA, nor is there as much to complain about. E.g. check out this recent thread on Delta's long haul food, see if you would ever see comments like this about UA. Delta promises upgrades to long-haul economy And this is reflected in all survey data, NPS data, rankings, etc. United is simply sub-par at this point (at least compared to Delta).

I think the real debate ought to be - and so far the analyists are NOT having it - is how much of United's poor performance is a result of it having a bad brand perception, bad NPS scores, and sub-standard product. Put another way, should an airline be customer focused to do well, or is it best to be focused on cost containment.

I think the last 5 years have amply proved which approach works best. But as EWR764 suggests above, my fear is that United will keep focusing on "enhancements" and does not have the will or board support to say what needs to be said - which is that United needs to spend a bunch of money, and forgo some short term perceived gains in revenue, in order to repair its damaged brand and field competitive (although I fear only leading product will get people to return) product and service.

cerealmarketer

Financial results aside, FA contract and more reliability are missing here as real improvements.

Ironically post Dao there seems to be a lot more teamwork.

I don't feel like I need to be in 'expert mode' to fly UA these days (something I personally enjoyed as an avgeek, but not the gen pop).

The stock basically gave back the gains made when Delta made people think everyone would turn a yield corner in 4Q.

Not happy to see soft product go backwards again, but also not happy with the direction it's taken at AA and DL.

As far as happy times on the DL board, let's be realistic...we have big discussions about beverage cuts, complaints about wine downgrades, and about FCM reducing upgrades, among other things. It's not a picnic for value seeking frequent fliers, or even at this point, those paying top dollar for domestic first.

Organizing a Protest for Better F Wine
Delta is modifying its beverage service in C+ & coach 251-350 mile flights
Delta’s New CEO: Giving Away Upgrades for Loyalty No Longer Makes Sense

BearX220

Given the two companies' respective brand standing...

... perhaps a vice versa deal should be on the table.

FCfree

As reported by CNBC in this article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/19/unit...in-a-hole.html

For a long time, dating back to at least 2002, but especially in the more recent environment of ULCC's, it seems to me if United can't make money with their "no-frills" fare that is supposed to compete with the ULCC's and they can't make money against the premium carriers (Delta and American, who's stock prices are up 6% and 10% respectively for the year compared to United's loss of 18% of stock value), the alternative is to be a LCC like Southwest with the added benefit of economy plus, business and first class.

The thing that drove me away from United was those silly change fees. Then when they added bag fees, that was the nail in the coffin. Sure, they look good on paper when they can say they made $X million from those fees, but what doesn't show up is how many people are not flying them at all because they don't have to pay either fee over on Southwest.

I like a nice big seat (first class) as much as the next person, but even if I could get back up to Premier status, my perception is that I would get very few upgrades. The value of the infrequent upgrade does not offset the pain of change fees and bag fees. So ... Southwest gets my business.

And of course, Southwest is just more customer friendly. Then, add the "drag the doctor off the plane" factor and United really has a perception of the "unfriendly skies" no matter how many smiling route maps they may put in their advertising.

Aussienarelle

+1

halls120

I think they are eventually going to find out they have made a mistake on installing 10-wide in Y and offering no true PE, making their 777 Y cabin the worst among their major competitors.

You mean like a slow roll out of Polaris hard product and at the same time, cutting back on the soft product?

I like Oscar, but I sometime wonder if he's really listening to customers.....

I flew Polaris the first month it was offered. I flew Polaris four times in August/September, and the downgrade in food and wines over what was offered last December is noticeable.

aoumd

Uggggggh. Back when everyone was speculating VX-B6 or VX-AS mergers (the latter actually happened, as we know), I was really hoping for a three-way VX-B6-AS merger so that we could end up with a fourth (fifth if you count WN) true Network Carrier in the US that would have the scope to gobble up corporate contracts and give the US3 a run for their money coast to coast. UA-B6 would be bad for competition and worse for the NYC market.

But back to the topic at hand...

If UA's business ain't what it was hoped, and seats aren't filling, sounds like UA needs a top to bottom product and customer plan that acknowledges some short term real cash will need to be sacrificed to win back long term reputation and business. Some thoughts:

1) Put back in the seats which were taken out, to create 3-3-3 Y+ on all 777s no matter what the Y- config.

2) Change BE rules to be like DL's - where BEs CAN bring their rollaboard for free. Commit to 100% Space Bins on all mainline aircraft to make this work.

3) Restore MileagePlus to the same value proposition (award charts, routing rules and Premier Qualification requirements) that were in place 36 months ago (late 2014) to win back those who travel more than once a year but aren't already "in custody" with hub or GS "handcuffs."

4) Set up a 3-year goals of a) reducing less-than-E175 flying by X percent without negatively impacting route structure, and get the E-Jets or CSeries or mainline aircraft needed to make that happen, as well as b) 100% Polaris hard product installed on all non-HD 772s and 764s in addition to the 77Ws and 763s; HD 772s get cascaded BE Diamond seats (upgrade from the fly-backwards 2-4-2 config today for F/C).

Short term pain for long term gain. If your margins are going to be subpar for a while it might as well be because you're doing the things that will bring customers back...

flyerbaby19

I agree w most of this, but I wouldn't do 333 for all 777's. I'd go with E+ 333 and E- 343. Differentiation and a fairly low price differential to me makes sense. I believe this is what AA does. Just need to ensure a large E+ cabin.

aoumd

Yes, that's what I meant when I said Y+ vs. Y-, E+ vs. E-.

flyerbaby19

My mistake. I misread.

What do you think are the odds of going back to a "valuable" MP program? That would probably get more dollars out of my pocket, but I don't see the odds as likely.

AAExPlat

I am not surprised to see any of this transpire...I fly UA every single week. Some weeks more than one roundtrip. International and domestic. I have also flown AA and DL in F this year. And my personal impression is that their F cabins are better domestically and that UA has made upgrades the most difficult among the three. I am currently on a streak of 6 instruments missed in a row on domestic flights. The message is loud and clear. Want F, pay for F. Problem for them is that if fliers have choice and can pay for F, they go with the best product. And it is not UA.

I am a true captive flier with zero choice, so their "strategy" of denying me upgrades and selling it to Mr Magoo for $50 works great. But I am not the norm. Now, awards are more expensive as of 11/1 (again) and that further devalues the program. For me personally, CPUs are impossible, instruments rarely clear and the RDMs worth less than ever. The only thing that they have the others don't? AUS-EWR multiple daily non-stop frequencies. And easy access via partners to my family near FRA and SFO. That is it.

Good luck to UA. I actually feel bad for Oscar. I think his heart was in the right place and he was beginning to right the ship with a concise message but then the board insisted on Kirby and Kirby has done everything in his power in the last year and change to undo any of Oscar's progress and dive the airline into a chaotic state again in which front-line employees are confused and sub-par financial results will be the norm.

aoumd

It's a longshot. And it would be temporary, until the general public isn't as mad at UA over the other airlines anymore.

findark

Yeah, for all there is a lot to gripe about, I think the completely boneheaded deployment of BE in markets like SFO-LAX and SFO-SEA where they effectively broke rank in a tightly competitive O&D market and hiked fares 25% or more was what really took me aback in management stupidity.

They can push all kinds of IT bugs on customers, but that plus their inability to correctly file BE fares seemed to indicate that they don't have enough of an IT shop even to manage internal data and price competition, which from a business standpoint is... scary.


I'm still a happy United flyer, but a little after the Dao incident I traded in most of my UAL stock for DAL and LUV, and am feeling pretty good about that.

Aussienarelle

+1

The IT bugs are ridiculous. They change things that are not broken but cannot fix IT bugs. I have been looking to UG with $ a number of my reservations that show as available and they continue to error out on the website. I have called in regard to one of the reservations but I feel so stupid calling to ask. So for the other reservations UA misses out on my $$$.

They took away many of the1K benefits that I liked - paying for my GE, paying my annual CC fee. Switch to Amex has paid for itself so although I am not certain how Chase and UA share the revenue I am guessing UA get less $$$ from that switch.

They also made GPUs so much more difficult in the first half of the year (although I have ended up using my GPUs although waiting on one UG in November to take) so they trained me to pay J if I really wanted it (international flights) but that also meant I started buying non-UA J fares or true PE flights (as I assumed the GPUs would not come through and E+ is not fun for ten + hour flights).

It actually took much effort on the behalf of UA to change my buying habits as I like knowing the system I am using.

I am assuming I am not the only 1K person who feels this way and has started migrating some of their UA spend elsewhere. Hope the LCC strategy works for UA as it I am going to go LCC - WN all the way!

With that said I hope UA rethinks their strategies for IT and 1K members as it may help their profits. :-)

demkr

Just today I had to wait on hold 15 minutes for a flight reservation to be "reissued" after an upgrade cleared (hey, at least that happened). The agent couldn't reissue it herself, she had to speak to a supervisor. It's things like this that have lingered post-2012. The IT issues are clearly on the backburner.

The constant bait and switch of, we're investing into domestic first class, oh wait just kidding. We're reinventing international soft product with polaris, oh wait just kidding. There's no consistency anywhere. Improvements are made --only to be clawed back into arguably not much better or even worse than what they used to be.

The only positive changes since Muñoz took over that I personally have noticed are the on-time departures and arrivals. For awhile, domestic F was improved. Now it's worse than it was in 2014. Polaris soft product is unimpressive to me and actually makes me long for some of the old meals.