traumamed

Hey all, it's been awhile since I posted but I figured I would seek the insight of wiser minds than mine. Best I could find with the search was this, which doesn't really address my situation since I am post-travel:

gift card travel voucher denied after purchase

Here's the TL;DR: 9 months ago, I was duped into obtaining vouchers from someone who may have purchased them from UA fraudulently. Used vouchers for travel completed 7 months ago. Now, airline wants me to pay for the tickets.

FULL STORY
Back in January, I acquired TravelBank credit from another MileagePlus member. I do not know under what circumstances this other person obtained the TravelBank funds, but I acquired them in good faith believing them to be valid. Let's just say that what I believed to be a fair market exchange occurred.

The TravelBank funds were indeed valid, and I used them to book a trip in March. I uneventfully took said trip.

Fast forward to today. I receive an email from a person at "United Corporate Security" reporting that my MP account has been closed, I'm banned from ever flying UA again, and that I owe them the cost of the tickets, or else they will pursue action against me. They claim that the TravelBank credits were originally purchased with an "unauthorized credit card."

At first I thought this was a scam email, but sure enough, my decade+ MP account is closed.

I realize I may need to consult with a lawyer, but I'd love to hear any constructive thoughts. Please refrain from telling me what a fool I am for receiving TravelBank funds from a stranger - that is not what I would consider constructive.

It is my opinion at this time that I am not responsible for the cost of the tickets. To my limited legal knowledge, if B fraudulently purchases property from A and then sells it to C, A does have the right to the property from C if they find out C has it, even if C acquired it in good faith. C would then have to take action against B.

But this isn't physical property. The "item" in question has been materially altered (used) in good faith and no longer has the same value. For example, if C bought lumber from B that he used to build a house, A cannot come to C and make him tear down his house to recover the lumber, nor does A have a claim for monetary compensation against C.

What do you think? Kind of sucks that I lost all the lifetime miles, but I can live with that. Having UA try to trash my credit and sue me is another story.

azepine00

I would start with telling UA the whole story with details and info. People get stranded after foolishly buying tix from strangers of questionable moral character all the time so this is nothing new to UA. I doubt they want to go after you or your MP account as long as you provide info on who sold them to you...

Kacee

Further,

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...ravelbank.aspx

You flew on a fraudulently procured ticket, in violation of the Travel Bank T&Cs.
I don't think you hold any cards at all here.

traumamed

Which I would have absolutely no problem doing, insofar as I am capable of providing the limited amount of information I have on the other party. I did email this United rep back earlier today, but I have not heard a response yet.

I was also pretty shocked at the hard line tone they took with me right from the start. I realize I'm no GS or whatever their top tier is now, but I'm certainly no kettle. You'd think more than a decade of loyalty with no problems whatsoever to this point would be worth at least a courtesy call or something before shuttering my account and sending me threatening emails.

mahasamatman

You're not the first, and you won't be the last. This forum is littered with tales of people including GS getting the same treatment.

Alas, your opinion is meaningless in this case. Even if the original TravelBank funds were purchased legally, buying or bartering to obtain those funds is against the rules.

garykung

Not so fast.

When the ticket was booked, where was the TravelBank money located?

Not so fast. UA's T&Cs may be a little bit overreach.

I am not disputing the T&Cs were there. However, if any credit from the TravelBank is not obtained via united.com Club (i.e. not given by UA as an incentive), the credit are in fact cash-equivalent as a UA travel credit similar to ETCs. Since someone has to "contribute" (i.e. paying the money) to UA for the credit, closing everything may be too far.

traumamed

I do not disagree mahasamatman about the rules, per se. As I mentioned, I will accept them closing my account because it is possible I was in violation of their internal T&Cs. Hey, even if they want to ban me from their airline, so be it. In my eyes, that is their loss.

What I am having trouble seeing is how their internal rules could translate into actual legal recourse against me. It is one thing for a business to institute a policy, but that does not necessarily mean they have legal rights based on the policy. In many cases, a company's only recourse is to refuse to do business with a client in the future.

I concede that had they learned prior to travel that I acquired the TravelBank funds through a method they deemed violated their internal policies, they could void the contract of carriage and do anything up to and including close my MP account and refuse to do business with me again in the future, but would that not be the extent of it? Remember that TravelBank funds are not legal currency, and have no such equivalency to legal currency anymore than a gift card does. They chose to accept my TravelBank funds as valid for purchase of travel, and allowed me to actually travel. How can they come back seven months later and say I now owe them cash because my original ticketing method is no longer valid? I did not purchase the TravelBank funds from UA, I acquired them from an outside source. In my eyes, their only legal recourse/actionable loss would be against the original TravelBank purchaser. If I am misunderstanding, please educate me.

garykung

Not so fast again - where was the fund when you booked the ticket?

traumamed

The TravelBank funds were located in my MP account at the time the ticket was booked. I completed a transaction with the previous owner of the TravelBank funds for acquisition of the TravelBank funds. He then transferred them into my MP account. I then used them to book travel.

Kacee

You engaged in a prohibited transaction and were on notice that, under the T&C, UA could void your ticket and make you pay for a new one. Purchasing TravelBank funds from a third-party who, by definition, was breaching the T&C also put you on notice that person might have obtained the funds through fraud.

I really don't see litigation ending well at all for you here.

But of course you should consult your own lawyer rather than relying on advice in an internet forum

traumamed

I fully agree that I will obtain my own legal counsel, should it come to that. I just brought it here for discussion. I used to be a much more active flyer, and at least back in the mid-late '00s, it was commonplace for bartering to occur. Maybe that is not so anymore.

I have a feeling I am not going to see eye to eye with a lot of you, and that's okay.

Please try to remember, UA is just a company. They are not a governmental agency. Their internal T&Cs are only policies and do not by their mere existence convey actual legal rights - although sometimes we as frequent flyers can easily get into a mindset that they do.

I am not a lawyer, but I simply find the following scenario hard to fathom:

- John buys a tablet from Wally World with a fraudulent credit card.
- John lists the tablet on Craigslist, where he is connected with buyer Jake. He even provides Jake with the original purchase receipt, telling Jake that it should still be under warranty.
- Jake's 3-year-old daughter accidentally drops and breaks the tablet.
- Jake decides to take the tablet back to Wally World to see if it is covered under any sort of damage replacement warranty.
- Wally World, upon realizing Jake has their essentially stolen tablet, decides to call the police and have Jake arrested for possessing stolen goods, and demand he pay for the tablet since it is now broken? Jake is legally going to be fine in this scenario. Wally World is out of luck.

UA's T&Cs not withstanding, I am Jake in this scenario. The ticket is used, and thus worthless. Sorry, UA. I can't help that I unknowingly came into possession of fraudulently obtained goods, and now that those goods are "destroyed," it's not on me to replace them just because I was the last guy holding the hot potato. Not trying to be argumentative. Just offering my obviously non-professional perspective, which I base on the Googling I did tonight about case law and not on UA's almighty T&Cs.

jsloan

United's Contract of Carriage are incorporated into each and every fare that they sell. The terms and conditions of the TravelBank are included by reference when TravelBank credit is used to pay for a ticket. You're looking at the wrong type of law -- you need to consider contract law, not criminal law. In this case, UA agreed to provide a service -- namely, your transportation -- in exchange for certain compensation. As you did not provide valid compensation, you've incurred a debt, and United has attempted to collect.

A better example would be if you had used a stolen gift card or counterfeit currency to make a purchase. In such a circumstance, the seller has the right to be made whole by the buyer. You can't return the ticket, so UA's only alternative is to attempt to collect cash.

azepine00

Take a break and wait for UA to respond.
None of what posters speculate or interpret here makes any difference in how UA responds unless you find specific examples similar to yours.
Also AA forum had a thread that perhaps may be of relevance.

traumamed

Agreed that my example above is extreme, and obviously regardless of contract liability I have no criminal culpability here. Just trying to drive home the point.

But using my above example, would you then say that Jake has a civil/contractual liability to Wally World for the tablet?

I agree that UA has a right to be made whole by the buyer. But which buyer? Me as the traveler who basically used a gift card (which UA chose to honor) to buy the ticket, or the actual buyer of the gift card?

LondonElite

You did not fulfill the terms of the contract you had with UA because the funds you used were obtained fraudulently, which you should have known as all such transfers from third parties are not permitted. I’m not sure I’d bother with a lawyer. Pay up, apologise, and ask nicely to have your account reinstated.