DCP2016

I'd be careful OP, we are talking about the airline that beats people up after-all, they could easily send goons to your house to "demand" payment.

Two Bee

Noooooooooooo! Don't talk to no stinkin' lawyer. You can learn everything there is to know on how to buy and get away with using hot travel funds, right here! Besides where else ya gonna learn BIG lawyer words, used in conjunction with advice on how to game the system. Pay attention --- UAL doesn't have a leg to stand on!!!

garykung

I suspect it is more like a hack.

Two Bee

Very possibly more sinister than that. Very likely one of them Russian hacks!

GrayAnderson

As before, I'm not a lawyer.

Or, for many people, it could prove to be an utterly meaningless footnote as far as the vast majority of small claims matters are for people. Depending on where one is in life, many of those considerations could be absurdly irrelevant (the bearing of that sort of thing on a white collar professional in their 20s is far different from the bearing on someone in their 60s). Also, asserting fraud without substantial evidence is probably grounds for a counter-claim of defamation.

I /also/ suspect that trying to attach a fraud action here would be a stretch. Notwithstanding how the other party acquired their travel bank funds (which is its own potential issue), I see no way to really "attach" this to the OP based on the facts I've seen.
@DesertNomad: The case there would be for friends-and-family transfers (e.g. Mom, Dad, and Junior have accounts but the sums all get consolidated into Dad's account for a vacation purchase, or you have three college friends who consolidate their sums to go on a trip together). With that being said, of course, there's a long-standing practice of non-contract bartering among friends and colleagues (e.g. "I pay for your trip out on UA of my account and you cover me on a separate trip on DL out of yours" or "I'll pay for this trip with a pile of UA vouchers and you pay me back in cash") which is probably technically against the T&C (depending on how it's orchestrated) but also probably impractical to ban (since doing so grossly devalues the vouchers in the eyes of the holder and as a consequence makes people less willing to accept them).

There's also the fact that (as this case illustrates) UA certainly has created an attractive nuisance in how their program is set up.

On the other hand, as you've said it took UA rather a long time to actually get around to this. I keep wondering what took them so long. One thought is that if UA is going after both the OP and the person he dealt with, there's a chance that UA would be attempting to effect a sort of "double recovery" with separate actions. Let's say that $1000 is at stake here (so I have a number to play with...ironically the same number someone picked above). UA goes after OP for the $1000, claiming that OP has effectively shorted them. UA /also/ goes after the other party for the $1000 that was (allegedly) fraudulently acquired. If UA prevails on both fronts, UA has just made $2000 on a $1000 transaction (which I kind-of suspect is what is happening here). This is why I looked at it how I did (since while UA should ultimately be made reasonably whole in some fashion, they shouldn't be able to pursue two separate actions in an attempt to be made whole twice).

There's also the possibility (UA's claims aside) that UA has decided to try and declare that the "improperly acquired" vouchers are invalid payment even if they didn't get smacked with a chargeback (which I rather doubt would survive in court). Again, things that (if fighting) one might raise with a lawyer as a theory. Consider it another variation on the "Prove you were actually defrauded" front.

Depending on what state OP is from, some of us might be able to suggest possible counsel looking for an academic challenge?

Two Bee

Probably because the scofflaws that sold these fake/stolen/ill-gotten funds to the OP sold uddles more to pigeons in the coup, and UA security is just now bring them all HOME to roost! It's very likely this wasn't just one lone dude pulling one caper, with some greedy flyer, that got a five finger discount and finally got busted.

That last thing the OP should be concerned about is whether he will ever get his miles back, of which some were accrued, while ripping off United.

PTravel

This is the only thing you said that's correct and makes any sense.

Exactly right, which is why you have absolutely no business giving legal advice. And I say this with the greatest of respect for a fellow FTer, and with no offense intended, but you haven't a clue what you're talking about. You're giving incredibly bad and wrong advice. Please stop.

Signed,

A Real Lawyer

Kevin AA

OP:

Normally if you make use of stolen property and get caught, you go to jail. Write UA a check and move on with your life. [Unduly personalized comment edited by Moderator.]

traumamed

Wow! I really seem to have stirred the pot here. Looks like I have a lot to address from the last day, so I'll get to it. There are too many questions for me to quote each one individually, so I've compiled an "FAQ" below.

First let me just say that I have never once disputed that UA is well within their rights to close my MP account and refuse to do business with me in the future. If they feel that I have acted in a way that is not consistent with their internal, unilateral T&Cs, then they can make the decision to fire me as a customer. So be it. Boo hoo.

This unilateral action on their behalf causes me no distress or hardship, professionally or personally, now or in the future. I am shocked they want to lose me as a customer over what amounts to a drop in the bucket that I have spent on their airline over the years, but hey, their loss. If they were smart they would review my account, see that I pay with cash/my personal CC 90+ % of the time, put this to bed with a stern warning, and maybe ban me from TravelBank. But who ever thought UA has any business sense?

Additionally, taking internal action to close my MP account and refuse to do business with me is quite different from taking actual legal action against me aimed at the purpose of collection.

And for all the people warning me off of posting further, I do sincerely appreciate your concern. I have no doubt you are offering sound advice. I simply do not have anything to hide. Everything of substance I have communicated on here has already been communicated with United. Furthermore, the dollar amount of this dispute is so low that it would not be financially reasonable for UA to actually file a lawsuit against me. I have been intentionally mum to this point about the dollar amount, but we are talking only $550. Hence my shock at their extreme response. The realistic worst case scenario is they sell the debt to a collections agency for pennies on the dollar, and they harass me and cause me a few headaches with protecting my credit.

Okay, here are my responses to the most frequently asked questions over the last day:

What do you consider fair market value?
The transaction was in line with routine gift card transactions seen on sites like Cardpool and eBay. On those sites, gift cards typically sell for 85-90% of the amount with which the gift card is loaded, give or take a few percent. The person transferring the TravelBank funds stated he wanted to get rid of them because he was not going to be able to use them before they expired.

How much $$ are we actually talking is in dispute here?
As I mentioned above, $550.

If it's a low amount, why don't you just pay them?
I stand on principle, and I do not care enough about the MP account or flying on United to just give in as a gesture of appeasement. My arguments are already stated in my previous posts and I will not rehash them here.

How did the transfer even happen? / I thought TravelBank funds were non-transferable?
I did not research beforehand any specific T&Cs on TravelBank funds. I had never used TravelBank funds before and thus was wholly unfamiliar with them. All I know is that the other party told me he could transfer his TravelBank funds into my TravelBank, and that TravelBank funds were indeed deposited into my TravelBank after I provided him with my MP#. My assumption, right or wrong, was that it was similar to the transfer of miles.

Why did so much time pass before UA took action against you?
I have no idea. Hypotheses have been put forth by other members over the course of this thread. Your guess is as good as mine.

Did UA say they were going to ban you even if you pay them?
No. I apologize if my original post was confusing or misleading. UA's email stated that they could exercise that option if I did not pay up. It did not say that they would, but in the context of the email it was worded quite threateningly. I have no doubt that was the intended effect.

I am happy to answer any more questions. Thank you to everyone who has responded - even those of you who stand fully and unabashedly in judgment of me. Just don't let me catch you in Coupon Connection lest you label yourself a hypocrite.

Okay, let's not get carried away here.

If there is one thing in this whole mess that is absolutely, 100% clear, it is that I have committed no crime whatsoever. Criminally speaking, I was actually just as much a victim as United Airlines. I never knowingly possessed stolen property. I never even had a reason to believe I could be in possession of stolen property. That's part of the definition of a good faith transaction. If we could not conduct transactions in good faith, then no one would ever buy anything from a private party out of fear of being held criminally liable for the other party's prior actions.

I take a stern tone here because while I am smart enough to know better than to buy into your sensationalism, other people who could be in similar situations and stumble upon this thread do not need to be scared out of their wits.

In short: give me a freakin' break.

Kevin AA

If anyone tried to sell stolen funds in Coupon Connection, they would be banned by FlyerTalk.

Whether it's $5 or $550 or $50,550, it doesn't matter. No business is interested in retaining a customer who defrauds them. It's that simple.

The choice is yours -- reimburse UA for the stolen funds, or get banned. Your arguments that "it's not that much" are irrelevant. You could steal a candy bar from Dollar General and the result would be worse -- jail, fine, and banned from the property. You aren't even given the option to reimburse Dollar General and all is forgiven. You get banned, jailed, and fined (plus restitution of not much money). Failure to pay the fine leads to more jail.

Count your blessings, write UA a check, stop trying to rationalize your behavior, and move on!

Law-abiding citizens buy airline tickets from an airline or travel agent. Criminals go around the system and buy stolen property. It's that simple.

traumamed

[Unduly personalized text edited by Moderator.] I knew there would be someone out there who would take this too far.

Fine, I'll bite and engage with you about the absurdity of your statement about Coupon Cxn. For all you know, I could have met the party who transferred the TravelBank funds to me on CC in the past. It doesn't matter. Completely irrelevant.

Someone could still go on CC, barter something they obtained fraudulently, and if the receiving party got caught, they would be in the exact same situation I have found myself.

But that person would be banned from FT, you say? Big whoop. Doesn't change the fact that the person who received the fraudulently obtained travel credits would be in a 100% identical situation to mine.

I guess they would be a criminal too? Oh WAIT, how could I forget! They are a fine, upstanding citizen because they performed their barter that is expressly prohibited by the airline's T&Cs with someone they met via FlyerTalk. They would have absolutely nothing in common with that deadbeat criminal traumamed, who did his prohibited bartering outside of the safe, cozy bosom of FT.com.

Kevin AA, If you have anything constructive to add to the conversation as it relates to the actual contract dispute in question, please, I'm all ears. [Unduly personalized text edited by Moderator.]

Kevin AA

Just because this is your thread does not mean you are in the right. You can choose to believe that you're in the right all you like. If UA writes it off and never bothers you again, fine. If they file criminal charges against you, well, you were warned.

All I'm saying is that a measly $550 is an easy price to pay to not get banned from UA and not risk legal action. Your choice. It seems that you have your mind made up. But in case your argument fails, don't whine that you weren't warned.

traumamed

I do not mean to force my opinion on you on the pretext that this is "my thread." I do obviously have a strong opinion on this matter, but that does not make me contractually right or wrong. What I do know, factually, is that I am also the victim of a fraud scheme here, the same as UA.

Further, I have an airline that is trying to force me into being party to the completion of my own swindling. Yes, some guy defrauded them. Yes, it sucks for them. But the same guy also defrauded me. This seeming to be a zero sum game, one of the two defrauded parties was going to get lucky and the other was going to get stuck holding the hot potato.

This time, UA was the unlucky party. The burden of proof is on them to show that it is my responsibility to make them whole. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. As I have said several times, I am not a lawyer. Had I been the one who lost both my money and my plane tickets, the burden would be on me to pursue another party to make myself whole.

Since you brought up the whole criminal thing again though - first, I was a victim, not a criminal. Do some research on how possession of stolen goods works if the possessor is completely clueless and has been duped. The only thing at stake here is whether I am contractually liable to UA for a debt of $550.

Second, UA cannot "file criminal charges against me" anymore than I can file criminal charges against you. Only the government, as represented by one of its prosecutors, has the authority to file criminal charges, and even then major cases have to clear a grand jury. Last time I checked, UA was not a government agency, did not have a government-sanctioned prosecutor, and did not have a panel of appointed judges from whom to convene a grand jury.

SunLover

OP you seem to have knitted a bunch of weak rationalizations together (I didn't know, rules are unfair) to justify your position.

My advice: You gambled on a secondary market transaction. You lost. Stop rationalizing and move on.


SL

PsuedoEuropeanGuy

Is this what this entire thread is about $550?

So you'd rather not pay $550 and get banned from UA and potentially risk legal action which will cost your >>$550 to depend.

Think also about your time. The time to defend the action and if UA has better flights for a route, you'll have to take the sub-standard route.