Fraudulent voucher
Oct 11, 2017, 12:47 am
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,395
And the fact that they chose to accept the TravelBank credit is irrelevant if the credit was obtained in a manner contrary to the T&C of the program. (Take the third party out of it -- if I were to use somebody else's credit card to fill my TravelBank and I then purchased and used a same-day ticket, when I later got caught, I couldn't then claim that UA had accepted the payment and therefore I was in the clear
.
Oct 11, 2017, 1:18 am
#17
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
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They claim that the TravelBank credits were originally purchased with an "unauthorized credit card."
Oct 11, 2017, 1:26 am
#18
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
My question is whether there is a statue of limitations. For most things, you cannot go back to a party a year later (I am not sure of the exact time frame) and say "hey, the method of payment was invalid!"
Oct 11, 2017, 1:37 am
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: KSRQ
Programs: Formerly UA, now whoever has the best routing or C/F price
Posts: 210
Both. UA was involved in two transactions and has the right to be made good on both. (Of course, they'd also have to reinstate the TravelBank balance). And you have the right to collect from the party who defrauded you, if you can identify that person.
And the fact that they chose to accept the TravelBank credit is irrelevant if the credit was obtained in a manner contrary to the T&C of the program. (Take the third party out of it -- if I were to use somebody else's credit card to fill my TravelBank and I then purchased and used a same-day ticket, when I later got caught, I couldn't then claim that UA had accepted the payment and therefore I was in the clear.
And the fact that they chose to accept the TravelBank credit is irrelevant if the credit was obtained in a manner contrary to the T&C of the program. (Take the third party out of it -- if I were to use somebody else's credit card to fill my TravelBank and I then purchased and used a same-day ticket, when I later got caught, I couldn't then claim that UA had accepted the payment and therefore I was in the clear
.It is getting pretty late for me, so I'm going to call it a night. I have every intention of opposing this if UA does decide to pursue action against me, but I will update this thread if I receive a response or resolution from UA.
Oct 11, 2017, 1:42 am
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: KSRQ
Programs: Formerly UA, now whoever has the best routing or C/F price
Posts: 210
Okay last post of the night for real. The TravelBank funds were acquired by me in Jan 2017, used to buy tickets in Jan 2017, and the travel occurred in Mar 2017. Today is the first I have heard of any shenanigans, nine months after my acquisition of the TravelBank funds and seven months after travel occurred.
Oct 11, 2017, 2:18 am
#21
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LAS
Programs: 3 MMer
Posts: 458
Mostly ALL of the advice that you have been receiving, thus far, won't stick, PERIOD!
First thing is you received stolen property, and then used that stolen property to purchase airline tickets. Then 2 months later you flew on these hot tickets!
Pretty much cut & dry, don't ya think!
First thing is you received stolen property, and then used that stolen property to purchase airline tickets. Then 2 months later you flew on these hot tickets!
Pretty much cut & dry, don't ya think!
Oct 11, 2017, 2:37 am
#22
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I'm not a lawyer, but I do think the time it took for them to bring this up would weigh against them (I'll allow that it might somehow have taken them a while to trace the transactions through the system, but nine to ten months from the "fraudulent acquisition" of the travel bank vouchers is a stretch...well, unless Paypal is somehow involved and it took whomever supposedly owned the credit card(s) six months to notice, but even then there's the fact that they took so long to carry this out that you presumably can't chargeback against the guy who did this to you).
I am curious as to roughly how much money is at stake here ($250 vs $2,500 vs $25,000 does make a difference here). Something to consider talking with your lawyer about, depending on the value of your MP account, etc. to you (versus the value of the trip), would be an offer of "You can have the money back if all of the other stuff is returned to its position and you give me whatever information you have on pursuing the guy who sold these to me". At the end of the day, there is a part of my gut that suspects that UA would rather have their money than spend a potentially long time chasing after this (or sending this off to collections at a few cents on the dollar). UA has taken an aggressive stance on this, but that doesn't mean there's not room to negotiate.
Noting that, if they're not willing to provide that information (to help you potentially chase down the culprit on your end), then if they dragged it into court you'd have room to argue against UA's claim of being defrauded ("Your honor, they say they were defrauded but they've refused to provide me or my counsel with any evidence of this"). Bear in mind that I'm trying to think of the most aggressive counter-position one can take with this.
Another line (I don't know how successful it would be) would be to argue that UA dithered for so long as to jeopardize your own ability to initiate a chargeback/reclaim their funds (e.g. if you could have done so for six months but since we're out to nine/ten months you can't; this would go double if you can somehow show that they knew about the situation before your trip but couldn't be bothered to act until now). Again, as I've said, talk to an actual lawyer.
One final thought: United gives a stack of remedies. They're not quoted above, so I'll quote them here (with spacing added to assist in reading):
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
(a) the termination by United of such Member's membership in TravelBank or the MileagePlus Program (including without limitation any Premier® or Million Miler status, if applicable), or both,
(b) the removal or cancellation by United of any or all accrued TravelBank Cash, mileage, Premier Qualifying Credits (as defined in the Program Rules) and any pending or outstanding TravelBank Award, certificates, or benefits (including without limitation any benefits associated with Premier (and/or Million Miler) status, if applicable),
(c) the confiscation of any TravelBank Award or other award tickets, denial of boarding with respect to any TravelBank Award or other award ticket holders or, at United's discretion, completion of the travel only upon payment of an applicable revenue fare (and applicable taxes and fees), or
(d) the loss of other TravelBank or MileagePlus Program benefits.
Members whose accounts have been terminated shall not be eligible to participate in any aspect of TravelBank and shall not be eligible to enroll with new accounts.
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
I am curious as to roughly how much money is at stake here ($250 vs $2,500 vs $25,000 does make a difference here). Something to consider talking with your lawyer about, depending on the value of your MP account, etc. to you (versus the value of the trip), would be an offer of "You can have the money back if all of the other stuff is returned to its position and you give me whatever information you have on pursuing the guy who sold these to me". At the end of the day, there is a part of my gut that suspects that UA would rather have their money than spend a potentially long time chasing after this (or sending this off to collections at a few cents on the dollar). UA has taken an aggressive stance on this, but that doesn't mean there's not room to negotiate.
Noting that, if they're not willing to provide that information (to help you potentially chase down the culprit on your end), then if they dragged it into court you'd have room to argue against UA's claim of being defrauded ("Your honor, they say they were defrauded but they've refused to provide me or my counsel with any evidence of this"). Bear in mind that I'm trying to think of the most aggressive counter-position one can take with this.
Another line (I don't know how successful it would be) would be to argue that UA dithered for so long as to jeopardize your own ability to initiate a chargeback/reclaim their funds (e.g. if you could have done so for six months but since we're out to nine/ten months you can't; this would go double if you can somehow show that they knew about the situation before your trip but couldn't be bothered to act until now). Again, as I've said, talk to an actual lawyer.
One final thought: United gives a stack of remedies. They're not quoted above, so I'll quote them here (with spacing added to assist in reading):
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
(a) the termination by United of such Member's membership in TravelBank or the MileagePlus Program (including without limitation any Premier® or Million Miler status, if applicable), or both,
(b) the removal or cancellation by United of any or all accrued TravelBank Cash, mileage, Premier Qualifying Credits (as defined in the Program Rules) and any pending or outstanding TravelBank Award, certificates, or benefits (including without limitation any benefits associated with Premier (and/or Million Miler) status, if applicable),
(c) the confiscation of any TravelBank Award or other award tickets, denial of boarding with respect to any TravelBank Award or other award ticket holders or, at United's discretion, completion of the travel only upon payment of an applicable revenue fare (and applicable taxes and fees), or
(d) the loss of other TravelBank or MileagePlus Program benefits.
Members whose accounts have been terminated shall not be eligible to participate in any aspect of TravelBank and shall not be eligible to enroll with new accounts.
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
Oct 11, 2017, 2:40 am
#23
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
I fully agree that I will obtain my own legal counsel, should it come to that. I just brought it here for discussion. I used to be a much more active flyer, and at least back in the mid-late '00s, it was commonplace for bartering to occur. Maybe that is not so anymore.
I have a feeling I am not going to see eye to eye with a lot of you, and that's okay.
Please try to remember, UA is just a company. They are not a governmental agency. Their internal T&Cs are only policies and do not by their mere existence convey actual legal rights - although sometimes we as frequent flyers can easily get into a mindset that they do.
I am not a lawyer, but I simply find the following scenario hard to fathom:
- John buys a tablet from Wally World with a fraudulent credit card.
- John lists the tablet on Craigslist, where he is connected with buyer Jake. He even provides Jake with the original purchase receipt, telling Jake that it should still be under warranty.
- Jake's 3-year-old daughter accidentally drops and breaks the tablet.
- Jake decides to take the tablet back to Wally World to see if it is covered under any sort of damage replacement warranty.
- Wally World, upon realizing Jake has their essentially stolen tablet, decides to call the police and have Jake arrested for possessing stolen goods, and demand he pay for the tablet since it is now broken?
Jake is legally going to be fine in this scenario. Wally World is out of luck.
UA's T&Cs not withstanding, I am Jake in this scenario. The ticket is used, and thus worthless. Sorry, UA. I can't help that I unknowingly came into possession of fraudulently obtained goods, and now that those goods are "destroyed," it's not on me to replace them just because I was the last guy holding the hot potato. Not trying to be argumentative. Just offering my obviously non-professional perspective, which I base on the Googling I did tonight about case law and not on UA's almighty T&Cs.
I have a feeling I am not going to see eye to eye with a lot of you, and that's okay.
Please try to remember, UA is just a company. They are not a governmental agency. Their internal T&Cs are only policies and do not by their mere existence convey actual legal rights - although sometimes we as frequent flyers can easily get into a mindset that they do.
I am not a lawyer, but I simply find the following scenario hard to fathom:
- John buys a tablet from Wally World with a fraudulent credit card.
- John lists the tablet on Craigslist, where he is connected with buyer Jake. He even provides Jake with the original purchase receipt, telling Jake that it should still be under warranty.
- Jake's 3-year-old daughter accidentally drops and breaks the tablet.
- Jake decides to take the tablet back to Wally World to see if it is covered under any sort of damage replacement warranty.
- Wally World, upon realizing Jake has their essentially stolen tablet, decides to call the police and have Jake arrested for possessing stolen goods, and demand he pay for the tablet since it is now broken?
Jake is legally going to be fine in this scenario. Wally World is out of luck.UA's T&Cs not withstanding, I am Jake in this scenario. The ticket is used, and thus worthless. Sorry, UA. I can't help that I unknowingly came into possession of fraudulently obtained goods, and now that those goods are "destroyed," it's not on me to replace them just because I was the last guy holding the hot potato. Not trying to be argumentative. Just offering my obviously non-professional perspective, which I base on the Googling I did tonight about case law and not on UA's almighty T&Cs.
Saying "UA's T&C's notwithstanding" does NOT alter that....they cannot be ignored..they are entirely pertinent.
Last edited by Pat89339; Oct 11, 2017 at 9:40 am Reason: Fix code
Oct 11, 2017, 2:44 am
#24
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
United has the obligation to prove that it is stolen property + that you had the chance to know that it was stolen (acting in good or bad faith).
Oct 11, 2017, 2:45 am
#25
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 76
How much money are they asking to pay back?
Are they asking to pay back a few hundred or a few thousand dollars?
If its a few hundred, I would just pay it up to stay in United's good books. We understand you didn't steal the items per se, but rather purchased (against the rules) stolen goods.
If its a few hundred, I would just pay it up to stay in United's good books. We understand you didn't steal the items per se, but rather purchased (against the rules) stolen goods.
Hey all, it's been awhile since I posted but I figured I would seek the insight of wiser minds than mine. Best I could find with the search was this, which doesn't really address my situation since I am post-travel:
gift card travel voucher denied after purchase
Here's the TL;DR: 9 months ago, I was duped into obtaining vouchers from someone who may have purchased them from UA fraudulently. Used vouchers for travel completed 7 months ago. Now, airline wants me to pay for the tickets.
FULL STORY
Back in January, I acquired TravelBank credit from another MileagePlus member. I do not know under what circumstances this other person obtained the TravelBank funds, but I acquired them in good faith believing them to be valid. Let's just say that what I believed to be a fair market exchange occurred.
The TravelBank funds were indeed valid, and I used them to book a trip in March. I uneventfully took said trip.
Fast forward to today. I receive an email from a person at "United Corporate Security" reporting that my MP account has been closed, I'm banned from ever flying UA again, and that I owe them the cost of the tickets, or else they will pursue action against me. They claim that the TravelBank credits were originally purchased with an "unauthorized credit card."
At first I thought this was a scam email, but sure enough, my decade+ MP account is closed.
I realize I may need to consult with a lawyer, but I'd love to hear any constructive thoughts. Please refrain from telling me what a fool I am for receiving TravelBank funds from a stranger - that is not what I would consider constructive.
It is my opinion at this time that I am not responsible for the cost of the tickets. To my limited legal knowledge, if B fraudulently purchases property from A and then sells it to C, A does have the right to the property from C if they find out C has it, even if C acquired it in good faith. C would then have to take action against B.
But this isn't physical property. The "item" in question has been materially altered (used) in good faith and no longer has the same value. For example, if C bought lumber from B that he used to build a house, A cannot come to C and make him tear down his house to recover the lumber, nor does A have a claim for monetary compensation against C.
What do you think? Kind of sucks that I lost all the lifetime miles, but I can live with that. Having UA try to trash my credit and sue me is another story.
gift card travel voucher denied after purchase
Here's the TL;DR: 9 months ago, I was duped into obtaining vouchers from someone who may have purchased them from UA fraudulently. Used vouchers for travel completed 7 months ago. Now, airline wants me to pay for the tickets.
FULL STORY
Back in January, I acquired TravelBank credit from another MileagePlus member. I do not know under what circumstances this other person obtained the TravelBank funds, but I acquired them in good faith believing them to be valid. Let's just say that what I believed to be a fair market exchange occurred.
The TravelBank funds were indeed valid, and I used them to book a trip in March. I uneventfully took said trip.
Fast forward to today. I receive an email from a person at "United Corporate Security" reporting that my MP account has been closed, I'm banned from ever flying UA again, and that I owe them the cost of the tickets, or else they will pursue action against me. They claim that the TravelBank credits were originally purchased with an "unauthorized credit card."
At first I thought this was a scam email, but sure enough, my decade+ MP account is closed.
I realize I may need to consult with a lawyer, but I'd love to hear any constructive thoughts. Please refrain from telling me what a fool I am for receiving TravelBank funds from a stranger - that is not what I would consider constructive.
It is my opinion at this time that I am not responsible for the cost of the tickets. To my limited legal knowledge, if B fraudulently purchases property from A and then sells it to C, A does have the right to the property from C if they find out C has it, even if C acquired it in good faith. C would then have to take action against B.
But this isn't physical property. The "item" in question has been materially altered (used) in good faith and no longer has the same value. For example, if C bought lumber from B that he used to build a house, A cannot come to C and make him tear down his house to recover the lumber, nor does A have a claim for monetary compensation against C.
What do you think? Kind of sucks that I lost all the lifetime miles, but I can live with that. Having UA try to trash my credit and sue me is another story.
Oct 11, 2017, 3:22 am
#26
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: West Coast, USA
Programs: Skywards Platinum
Posts: 3,747
Mostly ALL of the advice that you have been receiving, thus far, won't stick, PERIOD!
First thing is you received stolen property, and then used that stolen property to purchase airline tickets. Then 2 months later you flew on these hot tickets!
Pretty much cut & dry, don't ya think!
First thing is you received stolen property, and then used that stolen property to purchase airline tickets. Then 2 months later you flew on these hot tickets!
Pretty much cut & dry, don't ya think!
He received stolen property without knowledge of it being stolen and paid fair market value for it (in his words). I am pretty sure the law (not T&C) are on his side here as far as that goes.
Oct 11, 2017, 3:58 am
#27
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
Then again, it's UA...
Oct 11, 2017, 5:16 am
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
The TravelBank funds were located in my MP account at the time the ticket was booked. I completed a transaction with the previous owner of the TravelBank funds for acquisition of the TravelBank funds. He then transferred them into my MP account. I then used them to book travel.
Assuming it was not a contribution (i.e. using the credit card) from OP's purported trading partner, the fund has been sitting with UA. The only logical explanation I can think of was someone UA's account got hacked.
It sounds like UA is hiding something...
UA did not sell you anything but provided a service - public transportation.
FWIW - simply UA says so does not mean the T&Cs stand. In fact, a classic legal doctrine points out that a contract is interpreted against the drafter.
Oct 11, 2017, 5:44 am
#29
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Location: Honolulu Harbor
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Oct 11, 2017, 5:51 am
#30
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,579
Just a spectator here - if it is a violation of the T & C to move Travel Bank funds from one account to another, how did this particular transaction take place? 